Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

Danoh

New member
Encouraging words.

For whom did Christ die?

1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
 

Nang

TOL Subscriber
Romans thru Philemon often note a distinction between the lost, the saved, and the saved but later confused.

In this, a passage like the following is one example of the latter of those three...

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Your issue with things does not appear that one, though.

But the principle is the same - once saved, one is sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Or as the Apostle Paul had written unto the Phillipians as to his view on this issue...

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I John 2:18-19, 22-23, 4:2-3
 

Sonnet

New member
So those who have faith are blinded? Unless you want to proceed with that contradiction, you still have a specific elect people (who have been blinded) who have not yet been "realized" in time. Whether that "all Israel" is all racial Israel or spiritual Israel, they have been elected. They have Jacob as their pattern...



I would reiterate Jesus' own "might be saved" statement. The Calvinistic view here may seem problematic, but I have to say that when I come across statements like this, I don't see a contradiction in Paul (even Jesus) having one desire but realizing on the other hand that it may or may not come to fruition (because of the Father's will...which I admit is not fully revealed) :

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Acts 8:21-22

Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Hebrews 12:14-17

And Jonathan said to the young man that bare his armour, Come, and let us go over unto the garrison of these uncircumcised: it may be that the Lord will work for us: for there is no restraint to the Lord to save by many or by few.
I Samuel 14:6

Or when David went before the Lord on behalf of his son - he spent seven days seeking his life from God. God let it be and allowed him to do so until finally, on the seventh day, the boy died (2 Samuel 12:15-23). God allowed the child to survive for that long and David continued to fast and pray while the child was alive. There was always that hope that the Lord would act - but no guarantee. Nathan had already prophesied the child's death (2 Samuel 12:14). Was David wrong to do this? Even when Nathan had prophesied what would happen? What about Hezekiah gaining 15 more years of life (Isaiah 38) and Isaiah saying he would die and not live? Hezekiah still petitioned God and (in spite of Isaiah's statement) was granted further life. Of course he died eventually, but even when something was declared, the man sought God. There is always an "it may be" with God. He doesn't tell us all His will - including the apostle to the Gentiles (or, it seems, Jesus while on earth as the Son of man - remember the Garden of Gethsemane...). Does that mean that all is predetermined? I think it means (if nothing else) that predestination is an explanation of truth found in scripture but that goes beyond our ability to properly and fully grasp. Paul, again, was not being disingenuous - but describing the deep desire he had on behalf of his people (after the flesh). Our desires and God's ways will not ever unite perfectly. But that doesn't mean our unfulfilled desires are necessarily wrong (or sinful).



I can only say that I see in the Calvinist theology, a biblical explanation for why things happen the way they do. But when it comes to walking out our faith, we don't walk out what we know based on what we believe God knows. We are responsible for the light we have - and the Reformed faith clearly places responsibility for the administration of predestination in the Lord's court.

Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I Corinthians 4:1-5

Paul was clearly not made steward of the full understanding of God's ways in predestination.

For myself, I can only say I don't want my dogmatism to overreach my faith. In other words, I am happy to say I don't really understand predestination but that I do see hints of its operation. Yet when I act in faith and obedience to God's Word, I do so only according to the understanding I have. I can say I believe predestination is true, but I really can't explain "how"....nor am I required to.

Will respond.
 

intojoy

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Banned
Since God's foreknowledge extends even to counterfactuals then.....

I can not tell you that all babies will be saved because the bible is silent on the matter. There obviously were children who died in the flood.

One thing I'm sure of is that in the end we will say that He did that which was right.


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1Mind1Spirit

Literal lunatic
We love each other every one. But not you 1mindnospirit


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Thought I was on your ignore list.

While I have your ear, what spirit told you the devil lied to Eve about knowing good and evil?

Considering the Lord affirmed it?

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
 

Sonnet

New member
1 Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

What does this mean?

1 Cor 15:11
 

Danoh

New member
I John 2:18-19, 22-23, 4:2-3

I see you are still erroneously fusing together that message written of to members of the Little Flock, or the Israel of God, by John an "Apostle of the circumcision" with that message written of to members of the Body of Christ, by the "Apostle of the uncircumcision," Gal. 2:7-9.

You forget that I not only hold to a Mid-Acts Dispensational Perspective, more or less, but also, why I do.
 

Sonnet

New member
I see you are still erroneously fusing together that message written of to members of the Little Flock, or the Israel of God, by John an "Apostle of the circumcision" with that message written of to members of the Body of Christ, by the "Apostle of the uncircumcision," Gal. 2:7-9.

You forget that I not only hold to a Mid-Acts Dispensational Perspective, more or less, but also, why I do.

Acts 15:11
 

Sonnet

New member
Your turn - what did it once mean to you; and what does it now mean to you?

But it relates to my previous question regarding for whom Christ died - I would be interested in your view.

For me: Paul and the apostles preached to whomever vv.3-8.
 

Danoh

New member
But it relates to my previous question regarding for whom Christ died - I would be interested in your view.

For me: Paul and the apostles preached to whomever vv.3-8.

Not after their agreement in Gal. 2:7-9.

At which point, the terms "the circumcision" and "the uncircumcision" now carried a meaning that at times differed as to whom it was referring to.

Just before Paul was saved in Acts 9, he, along with his unbelieving nation: Israel, was concluded UNcircumcision at the end of Acts 7.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Both Jew and Gentile were now "under sin" Romans 1:18-3:20.

Both were now UNcircumcision.

In need of Paul's "gospel of the UNcircumcision."

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

While "the circumcision" that "James, Cephas, and John agreed" with Paul in Gal. 2:7-9 that they would now confine their own ministry to referred to "they of the circumcision which believed" Acts 10:45, which is who James, Cephas, and John are writing to in their Epistles.
 

Sonnet

New member
Not after their agreement in Gal. 2:7-9.

At which point, the terms "the circumcision" and "the uncircumcision" now carried a meaning that at times differed as to whom it was referring to.

Just before Paul was saved in Acts 9, he, along with his unbelieving nation: Israel, was concluded UNcircumcision at the end of Acts 7.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Both Jew and Gentile were now "under sin" Romans 1:18-3:20.

Both were now UNcircumcision.

In need of Paul's "gospel of the UNcircumcision."

Romans 2:25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

While "the circumcision" that "James, Cephas, and John agreed" with Paul in Gal. 2:7-9 that they would now confine their own ministry to referred to "they of the circumcision which believed" Acts 10:45, which is who James, Cephas, and John are writing to in their Epistles.

Very quick question b4 I respond in full - did Paul tell unbelievers 'Christ died for our sins'?
 

intojoy

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Banned
...and we know that Paul wasn't disingenuous...

Brother, the cross was not the only saving instrumentality.

Yes Paul correctly say Christ died for your sins but you will not be able to own it unless the Father draws you.


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Cross Reference

New member
Brother, the cross was not the only saving instrumentality.

Yes Paul correctly say Christ died for your sins but you will not be able to own it unless the Father draws you.


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How do you know He "drawed" you? Pershaps it was sentimentality that did and you have been mistaken about what to expect from your emotions.

How is the Father's influence unilaterally reconciled with this:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". . Jesus.
John 12:32 (KJV)

Except by this:

". . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)

So to be in Christ is to be reconiled with God. Now, how far do we extend this out in personal experience for a sustaining life IN Him that secures us to Him? Is there a test for proving our allegiance, our trust worthiness that a continual drawing by the Holy Spirit be made affective to the disposition of our lives?
 
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intojoy

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Banned
How do you know He "drawed" you? Pershaps it was sentimentality that did and you have been mistaken about what to expect from your emotions.

How is the Father's influence unilaterally reconciled with this:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.". . Jesus.
John 12:32 (KJV)

Except by this:

". . . God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)

So to be in Christ is to be reconiled with God. Now, how far do we extend this out in personal experience for a sustaining life IN Him that secures us to Him? Is there a test for proving our allegiance, our trust worthiness that a continual drawing by the Holy Spirit be made affective to the disposition of our lives?

A general call to all
An effectual call on the elect


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