Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

[God's Truth]

I believed in God and Jesus my whole life, since I was a small child.

Jesus did not save me until I started to obey him.

You will have to decide if you want some denomination's truth, or God's Truth.

You will also have to decide if you are going to make up your own denomination by taking from a little here and there from the many false denominations.

God says to search for Him and you will find Him.

How do you we search for God and how will we find Him?

We search for God by getting Jesus' teachings in the New Testament.

We find God by obeying Jesus' teachings.

 

[Sonnet]

People have been saying you describe yourself as agnostic or something similar. True? Why are they saying that?

It's true.

 

[musterion]

It's true.

So why go to such lengths to argue any theological matter? You've no dog in this fight, it makes no sense.

 

[Sonnet]

So why go to such lengths to argue any theological matter? You've no dog in this fight, it makes no sense.

It matters to me what it is scripture claims that Jesus actually did...what the Gospel actually is. That such opposing views exist is not a little astonishing.

I don't understand why you find that makes no sense.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

You do not care about the Truth. You do not even acknowledge the scriptures.

Obeying Jesus is not shameful and wrong. You have allowed yourself to be deceived by the devil.

I have lost interest in debating you on the other thread because you do not reply to the scriptures and explanations I give.

So be it.

Let it be known that I never gave up on you, and I will continue through all 5 OP's until I'm finished.

It may take a long time, but they will stand as a testament to your giving up.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Rebuttal of the dreadful doctrine of reprobation

It's true.

So why go to such lengths to argue any theological matter? You've no dog in this fight, it makes no sense.

It matters dramatically. Sonnet isn't chained by doctrines of men, so He has fallen in Love with the message of Jesus and is here defending it's true structure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Sonnet.

Also, the wise men that traveled to bestow gifts to Jesus were star readers.

That wouldn't exactly fly in the face of the brick and mortar BoC.

The whole world is entitled to the true, redeeming message that the origin of ALL, decreed the World worthy of His Love, out of Love Alone.

Perhaps that's the Sola that is missing!

Solus Amor


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[Sonnet]

Repeated attempts to dismiss the doctrine of original sin as a peculiarity of Calvin or Luther, Augustine or Paul fail to take seriously the fact that the same assumptions are articulated in the Psalms (Ps 51:5, 10; 143:2), the prophets (Is. 64:6; Jer 17:9) and in the Gospels (Jn 1:13; 3:6; 5:42; 6:44; 8:34; 15:4-5) and catholic epistles (Jas 3:2; 1Jn 1:8; 10; 5:12).

None of these scriptures explicitly say that we are born guilty of a sin.

Sin is not learned—it is an inbred disposition. Our kids got their sinful nature from us, we got it from our parents, our parents got it from their parents, and so on, all the way back to Adam. In other words, Adam's fall tainted the entire human race with sin.

You mean we are tainted with the tendency to sin. That's not the same as that we are born already guilty.

Both the guilt and the corruption of sin are universal. The apostle Paul wrote, "Through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned" (Rom. 5:12). "Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men" (Romans 5:18), meaning we inherited the guilt of sin. And "through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19), meaning we inherited the corruption of sin. No one is exempt. No one is born truly innocent.

The Romans 5:12 scripture does not say that a baby is born guilty of a sin. Sure, we do inherit a tendancy to sin and come into a sinful world.

Regarding v.18 - your argument could be used to maintain that, 'so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.'

Separating scripture in such a way skews the understanding.

When Our Lord said "If ye, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children...." Note here that He takes it as granted that the people to whom He is speaking are evil. Their evil is just a basic fact that can be assumed, and surrounding which there is no expectation of controversy. He doesn't have to teach original sin in any sort of lengthy way; it was taught in the Old Testament and could be presupposed in Christ's own teaching.

None of those he spoke to were babies.

To deny original sin means one must jump through hoops to make any sense of the alien righteousness the justified possess. It is our Lord's righteousness that is imputed to the believer who is declared righteous by the acts of another, Our Lord. This was Paul's point in the discussion of the first and the last Adam.

You haven't proven your definition of OS.

We are doubly sinners; by imputation and transmission of the guilt. The sin and guilt of Adam's sin is imputed to his posterity.

We all are constituted sinners by Adam's act of disobedience. It's not that we share in Adam's substance and that our individual being is a subdivision of Adam's substance so that we sinned "with Adam" because we have "a bit of Adam" in each of us. More simply, when God creates a soul, the guilt and sin of Adam is imputed to the person. Imputation goes along with a Creationist view of the soul.

You haven't proven it.

The imputation of Adam's Sin is immediate--God imputes the sin and guilt of Adam's sin to every soul created. Unlike some mediate view, God does not wait until we commit sin and then impute the guilt of sin upon us after we sin but we are born in sin and bear the guilt of Adam's sin. This is based upon the fact that there is a comparison of the guilt of Adam's Sin with the righteousness we have in Christ. The symmetry of Adam and Christ in Romans 5 is important. If we believe that a person is not actually guilty and corrupt until they sin then it would (erroneously) correspond to a view of Christ's righteousness that would require some mediate action on the part of the person responding to the Gospel.

Not clear what you mean by emboldened.

The church has long spoken of these things:

Spoiler

418 AD - Council of Carthage (Early Christian Church)

This council's position on original sin was, even "new-born children... have in them... original sin inherited from Adam".

Spoiler

No definition of OS.

529 AD - Council of Orange (Early Christian Church)

"... it is the whole man, that is, both body and soul, that was 'changed for the worse' through the offense of Adam's sin..."

"...also that sin, which is the death of the soul, passed through one man to the whole human race..."

1530 - Augsburg Confession (Lutheran Church)

"...since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, ...and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again..."

Ok - the last one is explicit - but there is no proof here.

1537 - The Smalcald Articles (Lutheran Church)

"... sin originated [and entered the world] from one man Adam, by whose disobedience all men were made sinners, [and] subject to death and the devil. This is called original or capital sin."

"This hereditary sin is so deep and [horrible] a corruption of nature that no reason can understand it, but it must be [learned and] believed from the revelation of Scriptures..."

1618 - The Canons of Dordt (Reformed Church)

"Man brought forth children of the same nature as himself after the fall. That is to say, being corrupt he brought forth corrupt children. The corruption spread, by God's just judgment, from Adam to all his descendants – except for Christ alone – not by way of imitation (as in former times the Pelagians would have it) but by way of the propagation of his perverted nature."

"Therefore, all people are conceived in sin and are born children of wrath, unfit for any saving good, inclined to evil, dead in their sins, and slaves to sin;..."

It is unconscionable to think babies are guilty of any sin. Extraordinary.

It is expedient, though, for Calvinists to think that this is so.

I see no reason to pick and choose from Scripture using some call for explicit statements and thus assuming things not explicit can be up for grabs according to what feels right or seems fair to our feeble minds. This same tactic is used by the Arians to deny the Trinity simply because the word "trinity" does not appear in Scripture. Sigh. There is a reason these views above have withstood the tests of thousand years of time, so one should tread very carefully before going off on new paths.

Nevertheless, your definition remains unproven.

 

[musterion]

It matters to me what it is scripture claims that Jesus actually did...what the Gospel actually is. That such opposing views exist is not a little astonishing.

Why would it matter to an agnostic?

I don't understand why you find that makes no sense.

Because you're an agnostic. Unless you're using some definition of agnostic I'm unaware of.

If you said you were some brand of new ager or something like that, like some on TOL, then your participation here would make some degree of sense. To call yourself an agnostic is a half-step away from an atheist, typically, so no, it still makes no sense. Why argue with (say) AMR that he's wrong when you -- by definition as an agnostic -- cannot say what is right?

 

[God's Truth]

So be it.

Let it be known that I never gave up on you, and I will continue through all 5 OP's until I'm finished.

It may take a long time, but they will stand as a testament to your giving up.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

Believe Jesus that you have to obey.

 

[Sonnet]

It matters dramatically. Sonnet isn't chained by doctrines of men, so He has fallen in Love with the message of Jesus and is here defending it's true structure.

Please correct me if I'm wrong Sonnet.

Also, the wise men that traveled to bestow gifts to Jesus were star readers.

That wouldn't exactly fly in the face of the brick and mortar BoC.

The whole world is entitled to the true, redeeming message that the origin of ALL, decreed the World worthy of His Love, out of Love Alone.

Perhaps that's the Sola that is missing!

Solus Amor


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

I still have no idea if scripture is truth or not.

 

[Sonnet]

Why would it matter to an agnostic?



Because you're an agnostic. Unless you're using some definition of agnostic I'm unaware of.

If you said you were some brand of new ager or something like that, like some on TOL, then your participation here would make some degree of sense. To call yourself an agnostic is a half-step away from an atheist, typically, so no, it still makes no sense. Why argue with (say) AMR that he's wrong when you -- by definition as an agnostic -- cannot say what is right?

Agnosticism is just emphasising the lack of proof. There is much in scripture that disappoints me and which I find baffling.

I don't want to discuss it here though.

 

[musterion]

I still have no idea if scripture is truth or not.

Exactly my point.

I don't want to discuss it here though.

Well this IS the religion forum, but as you like.

 

[Sonnet]

Why would it matter to an agnostic?

I certainly would never consider believing in a Jesus that elected/reprobated as described by Calvin.

 

[Nameless.In.Grace]

Be careful how you judge, because with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7:2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

My master does not judge, but only redeems.

I only quoted that verse that you would be mindful when you casually tell people the devil is teaching them.

That is the one that should bring trembling and fear.


Sent from my iPad using TOL ~Jesus is the Theology and the Counselor is the Commentary

 

[TulipBee]

Colossians 3:23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. 25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Work after faith

 

[Sonnet]

Exactly my point.



Well this IS the religion forum, but as you like.

It would derail the thread.

 

[TulipBee]

You are wrong, for Luther and Calvin have similar beliefs, they both believe you can do nothing without God first saving you.

God does NOT save unbelievers.

God inspires unbelievers

 

[musterion]

I certainly would never consider believing in a Jesus that elected/reprobated as described by Calvin.

Neither do I. But I actually believe the Bible, which gives me the rational grounds on which to argue it. As already said, I definitely have a dog in the fight, so to speak.

 

[TulipBee]

2 John 1:8 Watch out that you do not lose what we have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully.

What a powerful scripture showing that we are to work by obeying Jesus, and that those works save us for when we are done in this world, for our works follow us!

God watches His children

 

[TulipBee]

Tulipbee,

That is now TWO SCRIPTURES that say we receive everlasting life AS A REWARD.

Are you going to repent of your false doctrines and come to the Truth?

God wills repentance