Real Science Radio: The Search for Noah's Ark

[Lordkalvan]

They didn't NEED It!!!!!

You’ve Given None For IT!!!!! – So What???!!!! – “D’-ARK” Was ( “DARK” ), there was NO “Light” in it; - not even the Light of Truth, and there IS No evidence that anything of God Was In "D’-Ark", ( Except ) that the dwellers were ALL At (( “REST” )), - Asleep!!!! -- Prove me Wrong Genius, not just run your mouth in HATE!!! - ( D'-ARK of the Covenant ) was "DARK" also, but it had the "Light of God" in IT!!!

Paul – 072513

Clearly you are unaware that the null hypothesis is that crazy, bizarre ideas are wrong until evidenced by those proposing them. In other words, the obligation is on you to support your outlandish claims, not on others to 'prove' you wrong to your satisfaction. Given that you have so far spent days avoiding doing this and instead prefer mouthing off at anyone who dares question you suggests only that you are quite incapable of providing the requested evidence. No surprise there, then.

 

[Paulos]

Given that you have so far spent days avoiding doing this and instead prefer mouthing off at anyone who dares question you suggests only that you are quite incapable of providing the requested evidence.

The character is a caricature. Enjoy the ride, but don't expect it to go anywhere.

 

[Letsargue]

Clearly you are unaware that the null hypothesis is that crazy, bizarre ideas are wrong until evidenced by those proposing them. In other words, the obligation is on you to support your outlandish claims, not on others to 'prove' you wrong to your satisfaction. Given that you have so far spent days avoiding doing this and instead prefer mouthing off at anyone who dares question you suggests only that you are quite incapable of providing the requested evidence. No surprise there, then.

Has there ever been a “Fool” who had any idea what the “Shadow” of things to Come are”???

“He ((( leadeth ( Us ) (( beside the Still waters )), - He (( Restoreth )) our Soul”. --- ( Genesis 8:18-20 KJV ) ---&--- ( Ephesians 2:1 KJV ) ---&--- ( 1 Peter 3:20-21 KJV ) ---&--- ( Romans 6:4-5 KJV ) ---///---
You’re not one of “Those” who say that they eat the flesh of Jesus, and Drink His Blood, are you??? --- What do you say about that??? --- ( Deuteronomy 12:22-23 KJV ) ----///--- How do so called “?christians” justify that??? ---- AAAHHH; - the same way you as an Atheist, answers anything of God!!!! --- WITH Foolish HATE!!!

Paul – 072513

 

[Letsargue]

The character is a caricature. Enjoy the ride, but don't expect it to go anywhere.

There!! -- That's the only Proof you and your "Brother" Have!!! ((( And Let Have, by another Brother )))!!!

Paul -- 072513

 

[Paulos]

There!! -- That's the only Proof you and your "Brother" Have!!! ((( And Let Have, by another Brother )))!!!

Paul -- 072513

Thank you, brother from ((( another ))) mother!!! Slurp -- Stardate 91165.97

 

[Letsargue]

Thank you, brother from ((( another ))) mother!!! Slurp -- Stardate 91165.97

Hey!! -- I can sling Stones / Christ at you giants with your giant “?swords”, as LONG As you want to stand there!!! - The Lost are dead anyhow!!! -- You're not doing anything to me, but you sure are making yourself, and your friends look bretty Foolish with "Your" sword and shield; - if that's what Your father calls them!! -- WOW!!!

Paul – 072513

 

[Letsargue]

Good grief.

Just look at nearly every one of you guys who are jumping me here!! – You all are either (( Liberal, Atheists, or non Christian ))!!!!!!!! – Guess who it is ( Supporting you ) in (( your endeavor )) to shut me up, or show me up????? – Hey!! – It’s the so called “Christians”, and the so called “Pastors” of the so called “Christian churches”; - that’s who ( Supports You here )!!!!! – Check it out; I did, and wasn’t a bit surprised!!!!! – I suspected that!!! --- Now What geniuses????

Paul – 072513

 

[Lighthouse]

Any relevant research you care to consult.

Nice non-answer.

So you are defining 'kind' at the family level of taxonomic classification? How rapidly are you speculating that this family of two 'canidae kind' took to speciate into the 30+ species of canidae we see today? What about the extinct 'canidae kind'? Did they speciate and die out after the flood or before the flood? Where is the evidence for the existence of this 'uber-canidae kind'? There doesn't seem to be any evidence that the variety of canidae were very much different 4500 years ago than they are today.

Not very long, obviously.

And the basis for this logic is what? The Corvidae number some 18 extant families. Was the raven (a species belonging to one of these families) actually some kind of 'uber-raven', i.e. not really a raven at all, but some kind of 'Corvidae-kind'?

The raven was one of the seven members of that particular family.:dunce::duh:

So 1000 bat species from seven 'über-bat kind'. How does this make the rate of post-flood evolutionary development required any less dramatic than if there were just two?

:doh:

You're really not capable of thinking things through, are you?

For all we know it could have been seven different species.

Offering examples of dog-breeding does not actually address how quickly it might be possible for speciation to occur.

Idiot.

Thanks for clearing that up.

I'm not surprised you needed me to.

This is your mythology, I thought someone who was so ready to call others stupid might have the answers to such questions.

And how would I have these answers? I couldn't even tell you how many species there used to be, or are now.

Except that you have to insert extra-biblical explanations into the account in order to render it plausible even to yourself. That's the deus ex machina.

How are my assertions that God did as necessary for what He wanted to accomplish extra-biblical? I'm proposing possibilities, not claiming them as actualities. And none of them contradict the Bible.

So you think speciation rates measured in tens of years are entirely plausible?

Who said anything about tens of years?

So concluding from their statements about post-flood speciation that creationists accept rates of evolutionary change that are beyond anything proposed by evolutionary biologists is dishonest?

According to the link I provided we know it is possible within hundreds of years.

But I seem to recall one yours arguing something about fish somewhere doing so within my lifetime, to the point of inability to breed among the descendants.

Cue YEC claims of hyper-evolution. How do you propose all the species that exist today came about from their respective families in only 4,000 years? I've heard no answer to this question that doesn't rely upon evolutionary mechanisms occurring at a comically absurd pace.

See above.

If for example there were just 2 Colubridae (non-venomous snakes) aboard the ark, and from that nearly 1,938 species arose in just 4,000 years. That's 1 new species every 2 years, assuming none of these species went extinct in the process. This would just barely outpace standard population growth. YECs would also have us believe that evolution....erm, I mean "adaptation" accelerated at light speed, and then spontaneously slowed to a virtual standstill as soon as humans began categorizing animals. There is no evidence for this at all, neither within scripture nor within science. But that's not the only problem that need be contended with, as this one pair beget all other species at break-neck speed, it must have done so, while distributing itself across all the world's continents into the distribution that we see today. Now multiply that by every family pair on the ark.

Have you not been paying attention? Why do you think there were only two of these kinds of snakes on the ark?

"Preposterous" doesn't even begin to describe this.

:yawn:

Bump for answers.

Are you certain of that?

God doesn't do magic, but that's irrelevant. Why would there need to be a barrier?

Pangaea

Not surprised you missed it.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Are you certain of that?

Yes.

God doesn't do magic, but that's irrelevant. Why would there need to be a barrier?

Because when salt-water comes into contact with fresh water, the aqueous salt content becomes homogenized because of something called diffusion.

Pangaea

:idea: Great idea!

Except that the continents are currently only moving about 1cm a year. For the continents to have moved from Pangaea to their current positions they would have had to be moving at running speed.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So in other words for this to even be a remote possibility, the continents would have to at one point been moving at about x5.7 million times faster than they currently are.

You basically have to rewrite all of history, ignore physics, and ignore everything we know about geology for this story to work. You'd be better off trying to convince me that the three-toed tree sloth swam across the Atlantic. That's more plausible. :e4e:

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

See above.

I did see above, and I didn't see anything that would answer my objection specifically. I'm not keen on going on a wild goose chase.
Copy and paste your answer here and I will look it over.

Have you not been paying attention? Why do you think there were only two of these kinds of snakes on the ark?

I don't see how having two mitigates any of the problems I've described, in fact it only exacerbates them.

 

[Letsargue]

And this relates to the food requirements of the Ark animals and their juvenile status how, exactly?

How is it that some of you guys are not allowed on certain of “TOL”, but you (( Sure are Here ))??? – That’s somewhat Strange if one didn’t know better; --- then it all Fits!!!

Paul – 072513

 

[Letsargue]

(( Lighthouse ))!!

No wonder they’re jumping you also!! – So far I have found only one of these defenders of ~"?truth"~, who even claims to be a Christian, and it’s a “Liberal”!! – How can this BE??? -- Here on this “?christian” ~place!! – I just don’t get it!!

Well! Yes I do!!

Light, -- did you realize that most of these so called "Bodies of Christ" have made Christ into the biggest Beggar in all history?? - (( Just watch it on the christian channels ))!!

Paul – 072513

 

[Lordkalvan]

How is it that some of you guys are not allowed on certain of “TOL”, but you (( Sure are Here ))??? – That’s somewhat Strange if one didn’t know better; --- then it all Fits!!!

Paul – 072513

What?

 

[Lordkalvan]

Nice non-answer.

Only if you're too lazy or lack the interest to do some of your own research. There are no studies that show consistent population bottlenecks across all terrestrial species about 4500 years ago. Here is one of those studies that shows no such bottleneck; there are others:

'Estimates of polymorphism (24%) and average heterozygosity (0.0004-0.014) affirm the cheetah as the least geneticaly variable felid species. The genetic distance between south and east African cheetahs was low (0.04), suggesting that the development of genetic uniformity preceded the recent geographic isolation of the subspecies. We propose that at least two population bottlenecks followed by inbreeding produced the modern cheetah species. The first and most extreme was ancient, possibly late Pleistocene (circa 10,000 years ago); the second was more recent (within the last century) and led to the south African populations.'

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/84/2/508.full.pdf

Not very long, obviously.

Talking about non-answers, how long is 'not very long' and what evidence supports your conclusion concerning this period?

The raven was one of the seven members of that particular family.

And you know this how? So is that three pairs and one unlucky non-breeder? What were the other members?

You're really not capable of thinking things through, are you?

And you seem incapable of explaining things when asked to do so.

For all we know it could have been seven different species.

So fourteen bats on the Ark? Where is the evidence for this founder population of bats and where is the evidence for their rapid diversification into more than 990 additional species in a matter of a few generations? what, for example, are the 'genetic distances' between the various Microchiroptera species? Did the four extinct clades of Chiroptera become extinct before the flood, or did they all diversify and then become extinct after the flood?

Idiot.

The only idiot on show here seems to be the one who thinks that evidence concerning how quickly it may be possible to develop dog-breeds is evidence for how quickly the various species of Canidae could originate from two über-Canidae 'kind'.

I'm not surprised you needed me to.

Not very much seems to surprise you, particularly the rates of post-flood evolutionary change required to sustain the mythology of creationists otherwise determined to deny evolution at all costs.

And how would I have these answers? I couldn't even tell you how many species there used to be, or are now.

A little research would help your knowledge here.

How are my assertions that God did as necessary for what He wanted to accomplish extra-biblical? I'm proposing possibilities, not claiming them as actualities. And none of them contradict the Bible.

Where divine interventions are invoked on an ad hoc basis to sustain the obvious implausibility of a mythological tale, those interventions are clearly extra-biblical.

Who said anything about tens of years?

So what are you saying?

According to the link I provided we know it is possible within hundreds of years.

You seem to be confusing dog-breeding with speciation.

But I seem to recall one yours arguing something about fish somewhere doing so within my lifetime, to the point of inability to breed among the descendants.

So can you cite this specific argument and explain how, for example, the 'genetic distance' between these 'fish somewhere' compares with, say,the 'genetic distances' amongst the 1000-some bat species, i.e. what rate of genetic change would be required to produce those 1000 species in comparison with the rate of genetic change between these two fish species?

 

[Letsargue]

What?

((( Nothing )))!!!

Paul -- 072613

 

[Lordkalvan]

((( Nothing )))!!!

Paul -- 072613

You're right there.

 

[Letsargue]

How is it that some of you guys are not allowed on certain of “TOL”, but you (( Sure are Here ))??? – That’s somewhat Strange if one didn’t know better; --- then it all Fits!!!

Paul – 072513

Atheist, - Did you ask, - "What"?

( Churches ) will uphold the ( Church ), Right or Wrong!! – Yes, there may be a member or two that will speak out about the Wrong in it, but that will only get the member black listed by the Rest of the Hypocrites; -- so there is no sound!! - Any God fearing person can see through the hypocrisy. – Flattery, “Praise”, ( Agreeable ); --- Photo-op, Money, and the Rejection of Truth / Christ, with friends who do the same in the Same “?way”, is the Power of the Lost!!

Paul – 072613

 

[Lighthouse]

Yes.

Can you, then, prove it?

Because when salt-water comes into contact with fresh water, the aqueous salt content becomes homogenized because of something called diffusion.

Absence of a barrier doesn't necessarily lead to homogenization or diffusion.

:idea: Great idea!

Except that the continents are currently only moving about 1cm a year. For the continents to have moved from Pangaea to their current positions they would have had to be moving at roughly 8,766 miles a year.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

So in other words for this to even be a remote possibility, the continents would have to at one point been moving at about x1,410,747,444 times faster than they currently are.

You basically have to rewrite all of history, ignore physics, and ignore everything we know about geology for this story to work. You'd be better off trying to convince me that the three-toed tree sloth swam across the Atlantic. That's more plausible. :e4e:

Ever heard of entropy? Things slow down. Apparently even light.

I did see above, and I didn't see anything that would answer my objection specifically. I'm not keen on going on a wild goose chase.
Copy and paste your answer here and I will look it over.

:doh:

When I said, "see above," I meant in that very same post; e.g. the response directly above it.

I don't see how having two mitigates any of the problems I've described, in fact it only exacerbates them.

How does it exacerbate them?

Only if you're too lazy or lack the interest to do some of your own research. There are no studies that show consistent population bottlenecks across all terrestrial species about 4500 years ago. Here is one of those studies that shows no such bottleneck; there are others:

'Estimates of polymorphism (24%) and average heterozygosity (0.0004-0.014) affirm the cheetah as the least geneticaly variable felid species. The genetic distance between south and east African cheetahs was low (0.04), suggesting that the development of genetic uniformity preceded the recent geographic isolation of the subspecies. We propose that at least two population bottlenecks followed by inbreeding produced the modern cheetah species. The first and most extreme was ancient, possibly late Pleistocene (circa 10,000 years ago); the second was more recent (within the last century) and led to the south African populations.'

Source: http://www.pnas.org/content/84/2/508.full.pdf

So?

Talking about non-answers, how long is 'not very long' and what evidence supports your conclusion concerning this period?

:doh:

I was making a reference to the dog breed article I linked earlier.

And you know this how? So is that three pairs and one unlucky non-breeder? What were the other members?

I know because the Bible states that Noah brought seven of each kind of bird. And why would one not breed? why would they not interbreed?

And you seem incapable of explaining things when asked to do so.

Hypocrite.

So fourteen bats on the Ark?

You really are dumber than a box of rocks, aren't you?

Seven of each family of bat; each of those seven being of a different species, thus in their crossbreeding they created many new species.

Where is the evidence for this founder population of bats and where is the evidence for their rapid diversification into more than 990 additional species in a matter of a few generations?

See above.

what, for example, are the 'genetic distances' between the various Microchiroptera species?

Do you mean like siblings then first cousins then second cousins, etc.?

Did the four extinct clades of Chiroptera become extinct before the flood, or did they all diversify and then become extinct after the flood?

:idunno:

The only idiot on show here seems to be the one who thinks that evidence concerning how quickly it may be possible to develop dog-breeds is evidence for how quickly the various species of Canidae could originate from two über-Canidae 'kind'.

Is each breed not a different species from the others?

Not very much seems to surprise you, particularly the rates of post-flood evolutionary change required to sustain the mythology of creationists otherwise determined to deny evolution at all costs.

If species can "evolve" to the point of inability to interbreed in my lifetime why should I think it impossible for such, or even less, to happen in 5000 years, give or take?

A little research would help your knowledge here.

Did I forget to mention that in addition to my not knowing that I also don't care?

Where divine interventions are invoked on an ad hoc basis to sustain the obvious implausibility of a mythological tale, those interventions are clearly extra-biblical.

The flood itself was divine intervention.:dunce::duh:

So what are you saying?

:bang:

You seem to be confusing dog-breeding with speciation.

How are they different?

So can you cite this specific argument and explain how, for example, the 'genetic distance' between these 'fish somewhere' compares with, say,the 'genetic distances' amongst the 1000-some bat species, i.e. what rate of genetic change would be required to produce those 1000 species in comparison with the rate of genetic change between these two fish species?

Seeing as how that argument was presented to me some years ago and the thread may not even exist any longer, and I can't recall who posted it, I cannot direct you toward it.

I can, however, explain [again] that the most likely [and logical] explanation is that there were [Biblically speaking] seven of each 'kind' of bat, thus leading me to believe that each of those several sets of seven consisted of seven different species who interbred as much as possible in the time they were on the ark, and produced as many offspring as time permitted. Also, it is possible that God suspended many of Hid designs during that time in order to produce more offspring, which would have brought about a great many new species, from the crossbreeding of so many different species.

 

[Letsargue]

Can you, then, prove it?


Absence of a barrier doesn't necessarily lead to homogenization or diffusion.


Ever heard of entropy? Things slow down. Apparently even light.


:doh:

When I said, "see above," I meant in that very same post; e.g. the response directly above it.


How does it exacerbate them?


So?


:doh:

I was making a reference to the dog breed article I linked earlier.


I know because the Bible states that Noah brought seven of each kind of bird. And why would one not breed? why would they not interbreed?


Hypocrite.


You really are dumber than a box of rocks, aren't you?

Seven of each family of bat; each of those seven being of a different species, thus in their crossbreeding they created many new species.


See above.


Do you mean like siblings then first cousins then second cousins, etc.?


:idunno:


Is each breed not a different species from the others?


If species can "evolve" to the point of inability to interbreed in my lifetime why should I think it impossible for such, or even less, to happen in 5000 years, give or take?


Did I forget to mention that in addition to my not knowing that I also don't care?


The flood itself was divine intervention.:dunce::duh:


:bang:


How are they different?


Seeing as how that argument was presented to me some years ago and the thread may not even exist any longer, and I can't recall who posted it, I cannot direct you toward it.

I can, however, explain [again] that the most likely [and logical] explanation is that there were [Biblically speaking] seven of each 'kind' of bat, thus leading me to believe that each of those several sets of seven consisted of seven different species who interbred as much as possible in the time they were on the ark, and produced as many offspring as time permitted. Also, it is possible that God suspended many of Hid designs during that time in order to produce more offspring, which would have brought about a great many new species, from the crossbreeding of so many different species.

(( YES ))!! -- God could have done what he said, ( In Any way ) He wanted to, without saying HOW He did it!!! - God Just did it the way that is given!!!

Paul -- 072813

 

[Jukia]

Ever heard of entropy? Things slow down. Apparently even light.


.

This paper demonstrates light slowing down entropically? Really? Can you explain how they did that? Or have you not read the paper yet?