All things exist because of him.
The Greek word "en" has many renderings, "cause" is one of them.
If God inhabits "all space" and "all things" then God is space, that would be pantheism not Biblical theism.
--Dave
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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All things exist because of him.
The Greek word "en" has many renderings, "cause" is one of them.
If God inhabits "all space" and "all things" then God is space, that would be pantheism not Biblical theism.
--Dave
Thanks for your response.
Then I guess I have a touch of pantheism in me. I really don't study such things and label myself... I simply study my KJV Bible.
From that I believe all things are IN HIM and of HIM consists. It is just that God can impart of himself in measures. I learned this from what was said about Christ ... and from studying what God did when he created Adam.
If you look at what is said in John 3:34,35 KJV about Jesus, you will get the idea.
John 3:
34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given ALL THINGS into his hand.
From this we find that Jesus was equal with the Father God ... but we, were not given unlimited access to the Spirit of God nor were we given all things (in Gen. 1 and 2). We are not equal to God. Yet, if it were not for God ... we would not exist.
However, Collossians 1:16,17 KJV tells us about the creative works of God.
For by HIM (God and Savior Isaiah 43:11 KJV) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created BY HIM, and FOR HIM:
17 And he is before all things, and BY HIM ALL THINGS CONSIST.
IOW, before anything was ... there was God and only God.
And he created all things and by Him all things created CONSIST.
There is a measure of God IN ALL THINGS ... by his word things exist and of his essence all things consist. Created things are never equal to God... for he can impart of himself in limited measures.
Only the Savior had absolute total access to the all things divine of God.
Lon
Well-known member
Definitions:
Pan-theism = All (is) God
Panentheism = All "in" God (can't exist without Him)
Colossians 1:17 He himself is before all things and all things are held together in him.
John 15:5 I am the Vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
I agree with everything you have said here. The word "en" also means relationship, I'm in the Army, club, family, etc. does not mean "location". It's plainly wrong to use all "en" to mean location. Christ ascended into heavenly places in "the presence of God".
We are in Christ by relationship not location. The Spirit of God is in us, who believe, but not those who do not. God is transcendent means he is above and outside of the world he created, it does not mean he is above or outside of space and time.
God does not enter time and space to interact with us he enters our world in Christ and in spirit, neither of which are timeless or spaceless. A spirit occupies a location in space differently than a physical body does. We could never imagine a heavenly realm where all spirit beings occupy the exact same "spacelessness" which is where the saying, "how many angels can you fit on the end of a pin" comes from.
Just as time keeps everything from happening at once, space keeps everything from happening in the same place, in heaven and on earth. Just as God has all time, not no time, God has all space, not no space.
I may start another thread on this, God in time and space.
--Dave
All things are held together "by" Christ, not "inside" of him. We do not abide "inside" of Christ, he is located in heavenly places we are on earth. We abide relationally in Christ through the Holy Spirit who is located inside of us. See my post to Ps82 for more that is also meant for you.
--Dave
John 1:3
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
How long did God exists before He created things through Him?
God is Infinate
The infinite nature of God simply means that God exists outside of and is not limited by time or space. Infinite simply means “without limits.” When we refer to God as "infinite," we generally refer to Him with terms like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.
Omniscience means that God is all-knowing or that He has unlimited knowledge. His infinite knowledge is what qualifies Him as sovereign ruler and judge over all things. Not only does God know everything that will happen, but He also knows all things that could have possibly happened. Nothing takes God by surprise, and no one can hide sin from Him. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is 1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”
Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful or that He has unlimited power. Having all power is significant because it establishes God’s ability to carry out His sovereign will. Because God is omnipotent and has infinite power, nothing can stop His decreed will from happening, and nothing can thwart or stop His divine purposes from being fulfilled. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is Psalm 115:3: “But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Or when answering His disciples' question “Then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25), Jesus says, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
Omnipresence means that God is always present. There is no place that you could go to escape God’s presence. God is not limited by time or space. He is present at every point of time and space. God’s infinite presence is significant because it establishes that God is eternal. God has always existed and will always exist. Before time began, God was. Before the world or even matter itself was created, God was. He has no beginning or end, and there was never a time He did not exist, nor will there be a time when He ceases to exist. Again, many verses in the Bible reveal this aspect of God’s nature to us, and one of them is Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.”
Because God is infinite, He is also said to be transcendent, which simply means that God is exceedingly far above creation and is both greater than creation and independent of it. What this means is that God is so infinitely above and beyond us and our ability to fully comprehend that, had He not revealed Himself, we would not know or understand what He is like. But, thankfully, God has not left us ignorant about Himself. Instead, He has revealed Himself to us through both general revelation (creation and our conscience) and special revelation (the written Word of God, the Bible, and the living Word of God, Jesus Christ). Therefore, we can know God, and we can know how to be reconciled to Him and how to live according to His will. Despite the fact that we are finite and God is infinite, we can know and understand God as He has revealed Himself to us.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
How long did God exists before He created things through Him?
God is Infinate
The infinite nature of God simply means that God exists outside of and is not limited by time or space. Infinite simply means “without limits.” When we refer to God as "infinite," we generally refer to Him with terms like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence.
Omniscience means that God is all-knowing or that He has unlimited knowledge. His infinite knowledge is what qualifies Him as sovereign ruler and judge over all things. Not only does God know everything that will happen, but He also knows all things that could have possibly happened. Nothing takes God by surprise, and no one can hide sin from Him. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is 1 John 3:20: “...God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.”
Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful or that He has unlimited power. Having all power is significant because it establishes God’s ability to carry out His sovereign will. Because God is omnipotent and has infinite power, nothing can stop His decreed will from happening, and nothing can thwart or stop His divine purposes from being fulfilled. There are many verses in the Bible where God reveals this aspect of His nature. One such verse is Psalm 115:3: “But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.” Or when answering His disciples' question “Then who can be saved?” (Matthew 19:25), Jesus says, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible” (Matthew 19:26).
Omnipresence means that God is always present. There is no place that you could go to escape God’s presence. God is not limited by time or space. He is present at every point of time and space. God’s infinite presence is significant because it establishes that God is eternal. God has always existed and will always exist. Before time began, God was. Before the world or even matter itself was created, God was. He has no beginning or end, and there was never a time He did not exist, nor will there be a time when He ceases to exist. Again, many verses in the Bible reveal this aspect of God’s nature to us, and one of them is Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Thy Spirit? Or where can I flee from Thy presence? If I ascend to heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, Thou art there. If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, Even there Thy hand will lead me, And Thy right hand will lay hold of me.”
Because God is infinite, He is also said to be transcendent, which simply means that God is exceedingly far above creation and is both greater than creation and independent of it. What this means is that God is so infinitely above and beyond us and our ability to fully comprehend that, had He not revealed Himself, we would not know or understand what He is like. But, thankfully, God has not left us ignorant about Himself. Instead, He has revealed Himself to us through both general revelation (creation and our conscience) and special revelation (the written Word of God, the Bible, and the living Word of God, Jesus Christ). Therefore, we can know God, and we can know how to be reconciled to Him and how to live according to His will. Despite the fact that we are finite and God is infinite, we can know and understand God as He has revealed Himself to us.
Calvin and company would have loved it as well, it looks like an update of the Geneva Bible written by them with bias.
--Dave
Hi Dave ... have hardly had time to scan your post, but I'm already looking forward to writing a response to some interesting points you've made. However, I'm giving a buffet dinner for 41 people tonight - so very busy.
If God is "present at every point of time and space" then, logically so would the things he was present in be as eternal as God is. Once we throw out logic we can say anything we want, contradictions would not stand in our way.
--Dave
Zeke
Well-known member
Doesn't seem odd that God would put two innocent people (who had no concept of right and wrong) into a senario that any good parent would never do, and tell them not to do something and expect them to even grasp the penality.
You can tell your child he will get a spanking but until you do it the first time they have no understanding of what it is like, children don't grasp right away why they are told not to do something.
God had a plan from the start and nothing took him by surprise, if so he doesn't know all things, and he really didn't know where adam was in the garden when he ask where are you adam. Man is flawed by design or he could have dealt with the knowledge of good and evil, otherwise it wouldn't have been forbidden.
Zeke
Well-known member
Why would that make me one?
Well, I have theories - ideas - about that senario, but that is not the topic of this thread. Yes, I believe that God has a purpose for everything he does ... and I believe that part of all of these things was a redemptive (second chance) savior for mankind - because God is fair and merciful... and a loving Father.
Off to my own party.
Zeke
Well-known member
It is linked to the open view, that doesn't think God is responsible for evil, so if that is correct then he didn't create it which is the big black hole in that theory.
I don't believe that God created evil ... and if things seem bad to us in this world ... due to our state of immortality ... coming after our forefathers, Adam and Woman, disobeyed God, then we still cannot call God unfair.
He warned mankind what not to do ... and He predestined himself as Savior if we did. He agreed to come into our realm, experience death on a cross unto death for our sake.
The situation that makes things seem so difficult for us is that birthing and dying are processes that happen over time ... and as long as God allows time for these things to happen .... humanity suffers.
I've learned that this short time under the sun where I suffer is all worth the hope I have through Christ... for I am glad that God waited on me to be born and have my opportunity to one day live eternally with him in a perfect kingdom.
Too tired to think and write much tonight!
Went right over your head didn't it?
genuineoriginal
New member
I already acknowledged that God created the measuring of time at the creation.
But you are still not proving that time is in God.
You seem to want to say that TIME is something that is not God. I say God was before everything. There was not first time and then God. Your idea also suggests that God had a beginning point. I do not believe that the invisible spiritual God had a beginning point nor does he have an ending point. Only things determined within Him will have these things.
If God was first ... and God was the one who established ways to measure time ... and if God was the first to suggest measuring events over time ... then I would conclude that God created TIME... and that the means to measure what he established is IN HIM; therefore, He began time and it is IN HIM.
Now I might spend a lot of time searching for scripture references that can be put together to show this ... but there is not going to be one sentence in all of scripture to put these ideas together.
I'm beginning to wonder if is worth my time. Will be thinking about it.
Yet, there was a WAY that God entered into his own creations and thereby entered into our timeline.
You know what? Angels are also on a timeline. Do they have 24 hour days? I guess not ... but they had a beginning and some of them will have an end. Scripture has some things to say about the lost angels and their ending.
Lon
Well-known member
Btw, I thought this was Chuck Norris?Guys, I don't know if this helps the discussion here, but I just saw in a Wall Street Journal article that Tim Tebow counted to infinity... twice.
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