All "views" do not come from God...the Bible. That's your problem. I can tell what the truth is in the Bible by reading it. Not reading into it like the open view allows.
Proof from the Bible that God is In Time
- Thread starter Nathon Detroit
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All "views" do not come from God...the Bible. That's your problem. I can tell what the truth is in the Bible by reading it. Not reading into it like the open view allows.
I DON'T KNOW! but I'm not going to say that it isn't.
The question is if providence is meticulous/controlling (micromanaging) or responsive/macromanaging (the latter is biblical, while the former is Calvinism).
freelight
Eclectic Theosophist
God is within and without time...........
God is within and without time...........
One can still accept God incarnating or coming to earth in an avataric-form, accepting the eternal Spirit involves itself within the movements of space and time in the matterial worlds, and that the Infinite Spirit also transcends space and time as ordinarily perceived. Those of us more kin to a 'panentheistic' world view have no problems with 'God' being 'immanent' and 'transcendent'...within and without time, within and without dimensions.
Some early church fathers naturally borrowed some concepts from greek philosophers and other pagan or eastern religious viewpoints, incorporating such into a synthesis that seemed most proper to them during their times. Truth, wisdom, knowledge is universal. - however adaptations of better comprehension and understandings of truth appear to progressively unfold in the succession of time.
Philosophical concepts that are relatively true, universal and applicable can still apply and be incorporated within one's interpretation of religious writings (scriptures, etc.). Free exploration and research ought to consider all viewpoints, since all valid schools of philosophy, metaphysics, science would add to the totality of knowledge.
Some of this is 'semantics', 'assumptions'....a matter of how we define, appropriate and understand the terms of 'time' and 'eternity'. (whether 'God' is 'timeless' and/or exists for an endless amount of time. The answer in my view is 'both/and'. Typically we of more mystical/esoteric dispositions being more metaphysically liberal naturally see many facets and dimensions in the relationship of 'time' and 'space'. We also recognize that Infinity is boundless, beginning less, endless, having no finish....and that so called 'time' arises as a 'referential perception', being an affection of the movements of space, objects, events, ideas, etc. - its a natural re-flection in any sphere of relativity.
Terms such as 'timeless' or even 'spaceless' when applying to 'God' refer to his prior and transcendental Existence before any ordinary concepts of time or space come into view. 'God' exists independent of all/anything.....although space and time arise in 'God' and the manifest world as a play of perception, relating various movements of mind, matter, energy.
Here are some of Dave's threads where we've covered this ground before -
Did God create space-time?
The Chronology of God
And an original classic thread with lots of ground covered -
God and Time (no longer extant)
In general I see no problems with seeing 'God' being involved in the series of creative movements and potentials of space, which is the play of creation, where 'time' is the charting point of view because of the perception of movements and relationships. - this is natural within the conditional and changing realm of existence, from the perspective of man. The Infinite however is eternally prior to and transcending any 'time-concept' or 'conditioned space', and just is (the eternal I Am). Infinite Spirit is the unchanging reality behind all appearances and perceptions.
Essentially....'God' is in time as that very substance of life, being and consciousness that we are, since that very life essence is alive within this dimension of experience, relating within such an environment. The divine presence or spirit in Man, is however limited and conditioned to some degree by this finite matterial realm, and in such a way God is not only relating with man, but thru man.
pj
God is within and without time...........
One can still accept God incarnating or coming to earth in an avataric-form, accepting the eternal Spirit involves itself within the movements of space and time in the matterial worlds, and that the Infinite Spirit also transcends space and time as ordinarily perceived. Those of us more kin to a 'panentheistic' world view have no problems with 'God' being 'immanent' and 'transcendent'...within and without time, within and without dimensions.
Some early church fathers naturally borrowed some concepts from greek philosophers and other pagan or eastern religious viewpoints, incorporating such into a synthesis that seemed most proper to them during their times. Truth, wisdom, knowledge is universal. - however adaptations of better comprehension and understandings of truth appear to progressively unfold in the succession of time.
Philosophical concepts that are relatively true, universal and applicable can still apply and be incorporated within one's interpretation of religious writings (scriptures, etc.). Free exploration and research ought to consider all viewpoints, since all valid schools of philosophy, metaphysics, science would add to the totality of knowledge.
Some of this is 'semantics', 'assumptions'....a matter of how we define, appropriate and understand the terms of 'time' and 'eternity'. (whether 'God' is 'timeless' and/or exists for an endless amount of time. The answer in my view is 'both/and'. Typically we of more mystical/esoteric dispositions being more metaphysically liberal naturally see many facets and dimensions in the relationship of 'time' and 'space'. We also recognize that Infinity is boundless, beginning less, endless, having no finish....and that so called 'time' arises as a 'referential perception', being an affection of the movements of space, objects, events, ideas, etc. - its a natural re-flection in any sphere of relativity.
Terms such as 'timeless' or even 'spaceless' when applying to 'God' refer to his prior and transcendental Existence before any ordinary concepts of time or space come into view. 'God' exists independent of all/anything.....although space and time arise in 'God' and the manifest world as a play of perception, relating various movements of mind, matter, energy.
Here are some of Dave's threads where we've covered this ground before -
Did God create space-time?
The Chronology of God
And an original classic thread with lots of ground covered -
God and Time (no longer extant)
In general I see no problems with seeing 'God' being involved in the series of creative movements and potentials of space, which is the play of creation, where 'time' is the charting point of view because of the perception of movements and relationships. - this is natural within the conditional and changing realm of existence, from the perspective of man. The Infinite however is eternally prior to and transcending any 'time-concept' or 'conditioned space', and just is (the eternal I Am). Infinite Spirit is the unchanging reality behind all appearances and perceptions.
Essentially....'God' is in time as that very substance of life, being and consciousness that we are, since that very life essence is alive within this dimension of experience, relating within such an environment. The divine presence or spirit in Man, is however limited and conditioned to some degree by this finite matterial realm, and in such a way God is not only relating with man, but thru man.
pj
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Everything is under the providence of God as a responsible Creator, but the key is understanding the nature of providence and including creation, free will, and a myriad of factors (as opposed to absolute, meticulous control). The problem is not predestination, providence, free will, sovereignty, etc., but wrong views of them that impugn His character and ways.
Lon
Well-known member
By the same token, God is not 'in' space. Space is a property of creation. Ultimately, Dave, you have to understand that you are placing God within something greater than Himself with your logical parameters. That's your whole problem and the very specific fault of your logic. It is wrong at the outset. You are building off of a false premise of understanding Him. God is not subject to time or space other than as He willingly chooses to interact with what He has made. It is a free choice, not something that is a constraint as it is for you and I who are finite creatures constrained by the limitations we are created in. God does not and cannot be so constrained else He too, becomes a creation whether you understand this or not. It is a truth whether you grasp it or not.
Truth cannot become untrue and there is no way to discount or debunk this objective concept (it is true, cannot be shown otherwise, and stands whether you grasp it or not).
Yes. The only other choice is to give it to man. That's not what the Bible says.
Isaiah 55:8-11
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
or are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
10 “For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven,
And do not return there,
But water the earth,
And make it bring forth and bud,
That it may give seed to the sower
And bread to the eater,
11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
It shall not return to Me void,
But it shall accomplish what I please,
And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.
ThePresbyteers
New member
I was taught that the sovereign will of God can not be seen until it is fulfilled. I think predestination in the Bible falls under that teaching. It does no good for anyone to to guess, even after God's Sovereign will is seen only some can see it or individually can we see the path of our own God given grace. That is where Calvinists fall short they try to see and predict God's Sovereign will onto others according to their own.
Yes, povidence for us, does not mean that God controls or is in everything. But unfortunately it does for everyone else.
--Dave
Not really:
Isaiah 66:4 I also will choose affliction for them, and bring their fears upon them; because, when I called, no one answered, when I spoke they did not listen; but they did what was evil in my eyes, and chose that in which I did not delight."
--Dave
It's easy for you to point that out because it was revealed in the Bible.
So what. Why are you arguing with me? The sovereignty of God is not unlimited but is limited only by Himself. Does that mean you can "figure God out" before hand? Good luck with that. You think you have all of the answers? are you now "sovereign" because you have God's will figured out?
I'm not placing God in anything, pure space is not some-thing, it is no-thing or nothingness where things exist distinct and separate from other things. As the Trinity, the Father is something, the Son is another thing, and the Spirit is yet another thing as well. Is a spirit not a thing? A spirit is something, a presence with location in space. What does it mean to be spaceless and timeless?
Option A: God has no space and no time and occupies no place in space and is not present at any time in the history of the world.
Option B: God is unbounded by space and time and occupies all of space and is present in all time of the history of the world.
Option C: God has space and time and can occupy any place in space and be present in present time in the history of the world.
Option B: God is unbounded by space and time and occupies all of space and is present in all time of the history of the world.
Option C: God has space and time and can occupy any place in space and be present in present time in the history of the world.
The Spirit of God moved, in space, located over the face of the earth. Where is the Father and the Son at this time? Is the Spirit in space and time while A. the Father and the Son are no where in space and time, or B. everywhere in space and all of time, or C. located somewhere else in space at the same time?
Space and time do not restrict or limit God any more than it does us. We are intrinsically finite, we are limited from within not by what is outside of us, there is only so much we can logically do. God is intrisically infinite, there is nothing logically he cannot do.
Can you grasp all this?
--Dave
ps. I want to move this over to my thread, God Time and Space, ok?
God reveals himself to us, in Scripture, so that we can know/figure out what he is like and know what his will is for us.
I'm simply trying to help you. But I will stop.
--Dave
I'm sorry I didn't perceive that we were agreeing. The Bible does teach God's nature but it isn't fatalistic like some think it is. I think that the sovereignty of God includes mans responsibility or God would have to go against His promises.
I've added this addendum to the original article at KGOV.com
I've added this addendum to the original article at KGOV.com
Addendum: We human beings have great difficulty thinking even about the more simplistic aspects of time. Consider these corrections to two other popular misconceptions.
Misconception 1: Measurement of time equals time itself. Simply pointing out this nearly ubiquitous error should suffice to correct it. Secular folks and believers alike frequently assume this non sequitur with Christians suggesting that there could be no time prior to the Earth's orbit or it's rotation, with their confusion resulting from an assumption that if man possessed no scale then there could be no mass, or no ruler then there could be no length, or no speedometer then there could be no velocity, or no clock then there could be no time. The measurement of something does not equate to the thing itself, and neither does the ability or lack of ability to measure something equate to that thing.
Misconception 2: Time flows from the past into the future. It is often claimed that "Time's arrow points from the past into the future and the current of time flows forward." Yes of course this is a metaphor, yet the widespread metaphor is unintentionally exactly backward when compared to reality. The truth is the reverse, for in whatever way we may speak of time flowing, then time flows backwards. The current of time brings the future into the present and then to the past. Tomorrow's date, suspended perfectly in the flow of time, will eventually arrive at the present, and recede into the past. Incorrectly men assume that, "the current of time sweeps us from birth to death." But more accurately, the current of time sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past.
I've added this addendum to the original article at KGOV.com
Addendum: We human beings have great difficulty thinking even about the more simplistic aspects of time. Consider these corrections to two other popular misconceptions.
Misconception 1: Measurement of time equals time itself. Simply pointing out this nearly ubiquitous error should suffice to correct it. Secular folks and believers alike frequently assume this non sequitur with Christians suggesting that there could be no time prior to the Earth's orbit or it's rotation, with their confusion resulting from an assumption that if man possessed no scale then there could be no mass, or no ruler then there could be no length, or no speedometer then there could be no velocity, or no clock then there could be no time. The measurement of something does not equate to the thing itself, and neither does the ability or lack of ability to measure something equate to that thing.
Misconception 2: Time flows from the past into the future. It is often claimed that "Time's arrow points from the past into the future and the current of time flows forward." Yes of course this is a metaphor, yet the widespread metaphor is unintentionally exactly backward when compared to reality. The truth is the reverse, for in whatever way we may speak of time flowing, then time flows backwards. The current of time brings the future into the present and then to the past. Tomorrow's date, suspended perfectly in the flow of time, will eventually arrive at the present, and recede into the past. Incorrectly men assume that, "the current of time sweeps us from birth to death." But more accurately, the current of time sweeps our entire earthly lives into the past. Time does not carry our birth forward into the future, nor (as it might if time flowed forward) does it forever postpone our death nudging it later and later. Rather, "I" am like a floating buoy anchored to the river bed bobbing and resisting the flow of time. Contrariwise, the "events" that I experience are not similarly anchored and so being vulnerable to the flow of time, as sediment suspended in a river current, they are whisked into the past.
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Wow Bob, I have never really thought of it like that. You are so right. :up:
My only question is... how does that misconception effect the debate?
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