musterion
Well-known member
You voted that what Paul wrote is false. I need know nothing else about you.
Poll question: True or false?
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
You voted that what Paul wrote is false. I need know nothing else about you.
turbosixx
New member
You have two passages that reference the same OT scripture but ones says by works and the other not by works. I’m curious how do you reconcile the two?
Rom. 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
turbosixx
New member
Wrong, what Paul said is true, what you say is false because you take things out of context to fit your thinking.
You're applying commands from the Lord which He commanded during the time that the prophecied Davidic Kingdom was at hand for the nation of Israel.
We do not live in that time and even if we did, it was not a command to the nations/gentiles, and without the indwelling Spirit you have no capacity to obey it anyway.
If you desire to be saved, then, receive the instructions given by the Lord Jesus through Paul, the Lord's Apostle to the nations/gentiles.
turbosixx
New member
When I look at the whole, I do believe it is talking of water baptism.
Jesus said it would take water and the Spirit. I see both in the conversion of Christians.
Jesus taught the apostles how to make Christians.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,3
We see the apostles do just that and they received the Spirit, water and Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
After all Paul had seen and done how was he told to wash away his sins?
Acts 22:16 And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord.’
Even Paul baptized believers.
Acts 18:8 Then Crispus, the ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his household. And many of the Corinthians, hearing, believed and were baptized.
If baptism is not how one becomes a Christian, when did it change?
Voted.
Ephesians 2:9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Im sure not going to take credit for a gift from God Himself.
It is not by works of righteousness but by His grace alone.
The work God requires is faith
Now I say obeying religious rules and ceremony is a darn sight easier than simply trusting...anyone can do the charity work
Now I say obeying religious rules and ceremony is a darn sight easier than simply trusting...anyone can do the charity work
journey
New member
I voted true.
The work of Jesus Christ at the cross was perfect and COMPLETE. We have nothing to add to His work. Our good works should be out of love for God, not as a requirement for salvation or to maintain salvation. I'm a purchased possession of Jesus Christ, and He keeps me. I have eternal life because of Jesus Christ, certainly not anything I can do. The law of faith in Jesus Christ has set me free from the curse of sin and death.
The work of Jesus Christ at the cross was perfect and COMPLETE. We have nothing to add to His work. Our good works should be out of love for God, not as a requirement for salvation or to maintain salvation. I'm a purchased possession of Jesus Christ, and He keeps me. I have eternal life because of Jesus Christ, certainly not anything I can do. The law of faith in Jesus Christ has set me free from the curse of sin and death.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep, and I'm thinking it is the most common problem of all. Man is forever thinking he must or can earn God's GIFT of salvation.
The best question asked on TOL in I don 't know how long!
The best question asked on TOL in I don 't know how long!
The typical response you would get by virtually any Christian whether lay person or pastor would be to hold to one of those passages as it reads and explain how the other doesn't mean what it seems to say.
If you asked a Baptist, for example, you get an answer that affirmed Paul as meaning what it sound like it means while James wasn't talking about getting saved but what happens when your are saved or something along those lines.
If you asked a member of the Church of Christ you'd get the opposite. They tend to ignore Paul almost entirely and focus on the teachings of Jesus in the synoptic gospels and the New Testament books written by anyone other than Paul. They particularly like the book of James and immediately, and accurately, point out that James was talking about what it takes to be saved.
It is interesting to point out here that this debate, a debate that we might label "Law vs. Grace" is by no means the only debate that falls along these same lines. In fact, there are lots and lots of them! Can you lose your salvation? Should we observe the Sabbath? Is water baptism necessary for salvation? Must we confess our sins, as believers, in order for them to be forgiven or are they already forgiven? Is it wrong to eat certain foods? Do physical miracles happen on a regular basis? Will the church have to endure the Tribulation? Etc, etc, etc. There's dozens of them!
Every one of those debates has people on both sides and both sides do with each of these issues the very same thing as I've described with your Paul vs James passages. They take their respective proof texts to mean what they say and they explain away their problem texts.
What if I told you that there was a SINGLE teaching in the Bible that clears up every one of these debates and leaves you with NO PROBLEM TEXTS?
I know, I know! All you want is for me to answer the question you asked, right? Fair enough, here's my answer.
I make no attempt to reconcile them at all! They teach opposite things and they both mean precisely what they say without any need for interpretation or qualification. Any third grader could read either passage and tell you off the top of his head what they mean and he'd get it right.
To explain that statement is quite a task but not because its complicated, in fact its quite simple really. The difficulty is that the explanation presents one with a paradigm shift the likes of which almost no one is willing to make if the issue is approached too quickly. Any significant paradigm shift has to be approached a step at a time so that the whole journey can be seen and understood as the destination is approached. Typically, if I were to just blurt it out, right or wrong, you'd instinctively reject it out of hand.
Be that as it may, I understand that this forum does not lend itself well to long drawn out explanations of whole doctrinal systems regardless of how compelling those explanations might be. I'm therefore going to give you a single verse of scripture to consider. This single passage wraps up the whole teaching in a nutshell. If your interest is piqued then I can offer you all kinds of detailed biblical substantiation of a doctrinal system that allows you, with one teaching, to unravel dozens of long standing doctrinal debates while at the same time allowing you to read the bible, the whole bible, and not have you eyes glaze over because your mind is trying to figure out how it all fits together. You'll be able to just read it and it will just make sense. What stronger argument for a systematic theology can there be?
Okay, here's the verse...
Resting in Him,
Clete
The best question asked on TOL in I don 't know how long!
You have no idea how amazing a question this is!
The typical response you would get by virtually any Christian whether lay person or pastor would be to hold to one of those passages as it reads and explain how the other doesn't mean what it seems to say.
If you asked a Baptist, for example, you get an answer that affirmed Paul as meaning what it sound like it means while James wasn't talking about getting saved but what happens when your are saved or something along those lines.
If you asked a member of the Church of Christ you'd get the opposite. They tend to ignore Paul almost entirely and focus on the teachings of Jesus in the synoptic gospels and the New Testament books written by anyone other than Paul. They particularly like the book of James and immediately, and accurately, point out that James was talking about what it takes to be saved.
It is interesting to point out here that this debate, a debate that we might label "Law vs. Grace" is by no means the only debate that falls along these same lines. In fact, there are lots and lots of them! Can you lose your salvation? Should we observe the Sabbath? Is water baptism necessary for salvation? Must we confess our sins, as believers, in order for them to be forgiven or are they already forgiven? Is it wrong to eat certain foods? Do physical miracles happen on a regular basis? Will the church have to endure the Tribulation? Etc, etc, etc. There's dozens of them!
Every one of those debates has people on both sides and both sides do with each of these issues the very same thing as I've described with your Paul vs James passages. They take their respective proof texts to mean what they say and they explain away their problem texts.
What if I told you that there was a SINGLE teaching in the Bible that clears up every one of these debates and leaves you with NO PROBLEM TEXTS?
I know, I know! All you want is for me to answer the question you asked, right? Fair enough, here's my answer.
I make no attempt to reconcile them at all! They teach opposite things and they both mean precisely what they say without any need for interpretation or qualification. Any third grader could read either passage and tell you off the top of his head what they mean and he'd get it right.
To explain that statement is quite a task but not because its complicated, in fact its quite simple really. The difficulty is that the explanation presents one with a paradigm shift the likes of which almost no one is willing to make if the issue is approached too quickly. Any significant paradigm shift has to be approached a step at a time so that the whole journey can be seen and understood as the destination is approached. Typically, if I were to just blurt it out, right or wrong, you'd instinctively reject it out of hand.
Be that as it may, I understand that this forum does not lend itself well to long drawn out explanations of whole doctrinal systems regardless of how compelling those explanations might be. I'm therefore going to give you a single verse of scripture to consider. This single passage wraps up the whole teaching in a nutshell. If your interest is piqued then I can offer you all kinds of detailed biblical substantiation of a doctrinal system that allows you, with one teaching, to unravel dozens of long standing doctrinal debates while at the same time allowing you to read the bible, the whole bible, and not have you eyes glaze over because your mind is trying to figure out how it all fits together. You'll be able to just read it and it will just make sense. What stronger argument for a systematic theology can there be?
Okay, here's the verse...
Galatians 2:9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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journey
New member
It's very sad to see some people struggling, not knowing from one moment to the next whether they are saved or not. I give thanks that salvation is a GIFT - something I don't have to and can't earn. My only righteousness is by faith in Jesus Christ.
glorydaz
Well-known member
:first:
glorydaz
Well-known member
Gosh, knowing what a poor test taker I am, I'm not sure at all.
What did I vote for?
You know what I meant to vote for....can't you fix it for me? I'll look and see if I can figure out what I did. :noid:
Oh, oh dear.....I did it wrong. I'm a YES. I'm a YES for sure. I'm absolutely a YES.
6days
New member
@Meshack
You messaged me asking me to reply to your comments, but I see they have been removed. I assume you took issue with what I said on P-1?*
I'm quite certain my understanding of how I became a believer is inadequate. So...let me explain what I believe, and how my belief evolved.
Once upon a time, I argued vehemently against the Calvinist position. It made no sense to me. Slowly, I came to realize that I was giving myself credit for what Christ had done at Calvary.*
If you disagree with me... its fine. Salvation is based on what Christ did for us... and not on how well we understand the theology around it. Understanding, and having correct theology is important though. But having correct understanding does not save nor prevent someone from trusting Christ as their Savior.
You messaged me asking me to reply to your comments, but I see they have been removed. I assume you took issue with what I said on P-1?*
I'm quite certain my understanding of how I became a believer is inadequate. So...let me explain what I believe, and how my belief evolved.
Once upon a time, I argued vehemently against the Calvinist position. It made no sense to me. Slowly, I came to realize that I was giving myself credit for what Christ had done at Calvary.*
If you disagree with me... its fine. Salvation is based on what Christ did for us... and not on how well we understand the theology around it. Understanding, and having correct theology is important though. But having correct understanding does not save nor prevent someone from trusting Christ as their Savior.
exminister
Well-known member
I was scratching my head as well. Glad it was cleared up.
Be careful in November 2016. :cheers: :FrankiE: