Ph.D in Pot & the G.H.W. Bush Legacy

[JudgeRightly]

Funny thing about that list of reasons is that they are worse for alcohol and/or tobacco than they are for marijuana. For example, the claim that marijuana damages DNA:

Scientists have measured the catastrophic genetic damage caused by smoking in different organs of the body and identified several different mechanisms by which tobacco smoking causes mutations in DNA. Researchers at the Wellcome Trust Sanger Institute, the Los Alamos National Laboratory and their collaborators found smokers accumulated an average of 150 extra mutations in every lung cell for each year of smoking one packet of cigarettes a day...​

Source: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161103140559.htm

And regarding the claim that marijuana is a gateway drug, tobacco and alcohol are also gateway drugs:

A new study in mice shows how tobacco products could act as gateway drugs, opening the door to use of illicit drugs. Nicotine, the researchers found, makes the brain more susceptible to cocaine addiction. The finding suggests that lowering smoking rates in young people might help reduce cocaine abuse.

Scientists have long recognized that cigarettes and alcohol raise the risk for later use of illicit drugs like marijuana and cocaine.​

Source: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/why-nicotine-gateway-drug



The negative effects of tobacco and alcohol consumption are, by every standard of measure, worse than the negative effects of marijuana consumption. That being the case, do you think the same draconian punishments should apply to consumers of tobacco and alcohol that you advocate for consumers of marijuana?

Oh, and by the way, God's standard of justice is not "draconian" by any means.

Why do you belittle God with your accusations against Him?

 

[User Name]

Oh, and by the way, God's standard of justice is not "draconian" by any means.

Why do you belittle God with your accusations against Him?

You are conflating yourself with God. Nowhere in the Bible are the punishments you advocate listed.

 

[User Name]

The negative effects of tobacco and alcohol consumption are, by every standard of measure, worse than the negative effects of marijuana consumption.

Drinking and smoking tobacco is fine.

:chuckle:

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are conflating yourself with God.

That's a dangerous accusation you're bringing against me.

Nowhere in the Bible are the punishments you advocate listed.

Seems someone doesn't know their Bible as well as they thought.

Corporal Punishment:

‘If a man causes disfigurement of his neighbor, as he has done, so shall it be done to him—fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth; as he has caused disfigurement of a man, so shall it be done to him. - Leviticus 24:19-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus24:19-20&version=NKJV

If a false witness rises against any man to testify against him of wrongdoing,then both men in the controversy shall stand before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days.And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother,then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you.And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you.Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. - Deuteronomy 19:16-21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy19:16-21&version=NKJV

For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God. - 1 Peter 2:20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter2:20&version=NKJV

Death Penalty:

Causing death in the commission of a crime:

“If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life,eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. - Exodus 21:22-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:22-25&version=NKJV

Deadly negligence:

“If an ox gores a man or a woman to death, then the ox shall surely be stoned, and its flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be acquitted.But if the ox tended to thrust with its horn in times past, and it has been made known to his owner, and he has not kept it confined, so that it has killed a man or a woman, the ox shall be stoned and its owner also shall be put to death.If there is imposed on him a sum of money, then he shall pay to redeem his life, whatever is imposed on him. - Exodus 21:28-30 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus21:28-30&version=NKJV

There are plenty more places where god requires those "draconian punishments." :mock:

Which means they are far from draconian. They are just.

 

[JudgeRightly]

:chuckle:

Fine, meaning, they would/should not be against the law.

Obviously, they are hazardous to one's health. But they don't inherently make one a threat to the rest of society.

 

[User Name]

Fine, meaning, they would/should not be against the law.

Obviously, they are hazardous to one's health. But they don't inherently make one a threat to the rest of society.

Second-hand tobacco smoke is not a threat to the rest of society?

I'll say it again: The negative effects of tobacco and alcohol consumption are, by every standard of measure, worse than the negative effects of marijuana consumption. But anti-pot crusaders are nothing if not hypocritical.

 

[ok doser]

The negative effects of tobacco and alcohol consumption are, by every standard of measure, worse than the negative effects of marijuana consumption.

by every standard of measure except the one that matters in science - evidence based on controlled studies

the studies done on alcohol use and tobacco use fill libraries

the "studies" done on marijuana consumption fill a couple issues of Mother Jones





an exaggeration, to be sure, and worth mentioning that in the debate in canada, much weight was given to the research that shows marijuana use to be detrimental to developing brains - hence the restriction on underage use

as for the rest of you?

you'll be the new guinea pigs in this experiment - we'll get cancer data from your use in twenty or thirty years, and chances are excellent that unforeseen and unexpected side effects will manifest as well, especially in cognitive function, but inevitably in damage to other systems, especially pulmonary and circulatory

one side effect that worries me is the dumbing down of a population that already shows few signs of intelligence - and make no mistake about it - the communities hardest hit by the consequences of this "progressive" legislation won't be the upper middle class or the 1% - it'll be those who can least afford to bear the weight of the consequences that will surely ensue

 

[User Name]

you'll be the new guinea pigs in this experiment - we'll get cancer data from your use in twenty or thirty years, and chances are excellent that unforeseen and unexpected side effects will manifest as well, especially in cognitive function

"The new guinea pigs"? You talk like people just started smoking weed a few years ago.

Successful musicians such as Paul McCartney and Bob Dylan have smoked more weed than you'll ever touch in your whole life. Last I checked they're doing quite well for their respective ages.

 

[drbrumley]

DrBrumley, I didn't expect you to be one who misrepresents his opponents arguments. That's something I expect from liberals and leftists.

But I didn't misrepresent you at all. It is clear from your own words. The 4th time getting caught taking a toke, (I assume you will be drug testing like the states currently do it for VoP) your asking for the death penalty. So your WILLING to kill a person for a 4th offense of drug use (I pray it is nobody close to you) because you come to the conclusion he/she is unwilling to abide by the rules of society.....so no I didn't misrepresent you.....

Please go read what I said again and pay attention.

I did, thank you....and I still can't believe a christian would stoop to such levels.

I said that if they were caught 3 times (with each time they are caught resulting in more lashes than the last), the fourth would result in their execution, because they are unwilling to abide by the rules of society.

Exactly...you can parse words all you want to, but your WILLING to kill a person for what they decide to put in their own body....making you a "moral busybody"

Ignoring part of my argument and then saying I'm unreasonable is something I expect from Arthur, not you. Should I start expecting such arguments from you now?

:snip: for inaccuracy

 

[ok doser]

"The new guinea pigs"? You talk like people just started smoking weed a few years ago.

Successful musicians such as Paul McCartney and Bob Dylan have smoked more weed than you'll ever touch in your whole life. Last I checked they're doing quite well for their respective ages.

looks like you have no idea about the necessary parameters for a robust scientific study :sigh:

 

[ok doser]

"The new guinea pigs"? You talk like people just started smoking weed a few years ago.

Successful musicians such as Paul McCartney and Bob Dylan have smoked more weed than you'll ever touch in your whole life. Last I checked they're doing quite well for their respective ages.

for anecdotal evidence, i would have gone with Willie nelson

but it's pointless to bring up any of them unless you can tell me what their doctors' record on their charts :idunno:


unfortunately, your style of "evidence" is persuasive to the young, the ignorant, the retarded

"my uncle drove drunk for seventy years and died peacefully in his bed, so there's nothing wrong with driving drunk!"

 

[User Name]

for anecdotal evidence, i would have gone with Willie nelson

but it's pointless to bring up any of them unless you can tell me what their doctors' record on their charts :idunno:


unfortunately, your style of "evidence" is persuasive to the young, the ignorant, the retarded

"my uncle drove drunk for seventy years and died peacefully in his bed, so there's nothing wrong with driving drunk!"

We know that tobacco and alcohol consumption are harmful and dangerous to the user and to those around them, so your argument will have some credibility only when your attitude towards tobacco and alcohol matches your attitude towards marijuana. It will take some time and effort on your part, but try to tone down the hypocrisy a bit.

 

[ok doser]

We know that tobacco and alcohol consumption are harmful and dangerous to the user and to those around them...

because we have decades and decades of rigorous scientific studies to refer to

, so your argument will have some credibility

which argument is that?


tell me what you think my argument is and then we can take a look and see if its hypocritical

 

[ok doser]

... the communities hardest hit by the consequences of this "progressive" legislation won't be the upper middle class or the 1% - it'll be those who can least afford to bear the weight of the consequences that will surely ensue

i highly recommend giving this a listen:

one of the points Murray makes is that the poor/working class was less able to recover from the foolish choices they made in the sixties, seventies, eighties - wrt drug experimentation, out of wedlock parenthood, prioritization of short term gains over long term benefits - and thus the gap between the wealthy and the poor widened

he doesn't specifically refer to "Idiocracy" but he covers many of the same themes

 

[fool]

i expect the craziness to ramp up in the warmer months

We've had medical weed here for 10 years now. You can get a prescription if you have toe nail fungus.
Having toe nail fungus allows you to grow ten plants at a time.
OR, get this, you can delegate growing your ten plants to a grower, who grows for a living for lots of people. So the whole thing has been pretty much wide open for ten years.
World didn't end ten years ago, world din't end when Canada legalized it earlier this year, world didn't end last week when it became the equivalent of beer.

 

[fool]

The logic is that anything which the NORMAL USE of gets one high should be illegal.

Millions of people have a glass of wine or two every day and do not get drunk.

But one inhale on a joint of weed is enough to produce a high.

That's the difference.

Your position is common among those who support legalization. But it's wrong, because of the above.

Also, we tried making alcohol illegal once, and it DID lower the number of health related issues that come as a result of drunkenness.

But making alcoholic consumption illegal was wrong for the same reason that legalizing weed use is wrong, because a glass of wine doesn't get the average person drunk, whereas a puff on some weed produces an immediate high.

That's not even remotely true JR.
They have weed that doesn't even get you high now, they strained it for the Epileptics.
And why are you comparing to wine? Compare it to a glass of pure ethanol.
Compare a wine glass full of pure ethanol to a hit of low THC oil in a vape and see who's wasted.
Potency and dosage are important.

 

[ok doser]

That's not even remotely true JR.
They have weed that doesn't even get you high now, they strained it for the Epileptics.
And why are you comparing to wine? Compare it to a glass of pure ethanol.
Compare a wine glass full of pure ethanol to a hit of low THC oil in a vape and see who's wasted.
Potency and dosage are important.

i tried pure ethanol once - reagent grade 100% ethanol

i don't recommend it - pure ethanol is very strongly hygroscopic - the only thing i can compare it to is sucking on a chunk of alum

which i don't recommend either



and as far as vaping goes?

another experiment running with poor controls - medical researchers will be making names for themselves in twenty years when we start seeing the effects of legalized pot and vaping, etc

 

[fool]

i tried pure ethanol once - reagent grade 100% ethanol

i don't recommend it - pure ethanol is very strongly hygroscopic - the only thing i can compare it to is sucking on a chunk of alum

which i don't recommend either



and as far as vaping goes?

another experiment running with poor controls - medical researchers will be making names for themselves in twenty years when we start seeing the effects of legalized pot and vaping, etc

Do you think vaping will be more destructive than smoking?

 

[ok doser]

probably not, but it's really impossible to say


but i don't know a single person who vapes who took it up to quit smoking

 

[Yorzhik]

We've had medical weed here for 10 years now. You can get a prescription if you have toe nail fungus.
Having toe nail fungus allows you to grow ten plants at a time.
OR, get this, you can delegate growing your ten plants to a grower, who grows for a living for lots of people. So the whole thing has been pretty much wide open for ten years.
World didn't end ten years ago, world din't end when Canada legalized it earlier this year, world didn't end last week when it became the equivalent of beer.

Interesting story: My dad owned a laundromat in Michigan. A weed grower used to come in and wash his grow bags every few weeks. He'd fill every 35 lb. washer, so his operation was quite a bit bigger than 10 plants. He did this for years. Normally the owner wouldn't come in, but one of his employees would wash the bags. I can say that it smelled of weed to high heaven on days they washed. The owner was a nice guy, but his employees were stereotypical pot-heads. Spoke like Spicoli, dim eyes, poor motor control, very forgetful, but they never did make trouble... except missing some of the grow bags that we would hold until the owner had a chance to swing by and pick up.

My own view is that of fool's - it's been in use for a long time and not a great deal will change when it is legalized. Except that it will be more widely used initially. But in short order it will be be of better consistency, leading to similar rates of people being high over time and actually less problems with them when they are.

Only the death and destruction caused by the drug war will be a great deal less.