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glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
rougueone said:
Or Patrick, is there more fear, as a person who knows they are saved realizes his salvation is not a licence to kill. But a much, higher calling, with tremendous responsibility. And although I know I am saved, as my adoption papers are signed in Holy Blood. I will, like all, stand before my Lord. Hoping I glorified God with what HE gave me, and spoke to me. My eternal rewards. A one shot deal . Fear of the Lord is the ultimate thing to hold in ones heart.
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Fear and revere are so close. The former is replaced by the latter because of our position IN Christ. What have I to fear....leaning on the Everlasting Arms?
 
turbosixx

turbosixx

New member
glorydaz said:
And I'm glad you have taken the time to see that. One thing you might think about is that the baptism of John was for a specific purpose and time. After our Lord was risen from the dead, He gave Paul revelations that pertained to salvation by grace through faith. When we believe Paul's gospel, we are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when He comes to dwell in us. That is not John's baptism of water. Others can explain it much better than I can, but I've been a Christian for a long time and I didn't really understand why things were different before the cross and after the cross....but they are and there is good reason.
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I would suggest baptism is very important and misunderstood. I hear people say a lot about it but most are either not in scripture or are in direct contradiction to scripture. The reason baptism is different before and after the cross is because of Jesus’ blood. Did Jesus send the apostles out to save anyone before his D,B &R? No, it was after he was made Lord and Christ that people could be saved by his blood.
Acts 2: 36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

The way we are put into Christ is by being water baptized in his name.
Matt. 28:19 Go therefore make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

An excellent example of this fact is found here:
Acts 19:1 And it happened, Apollos was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper regions, came to Ephesus. And finding some disciples 2 he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
If we are baptized by the Holy Spirit when we believe, why would Paul ask this question knowing they had believed?

When he finds they haven’t received the Holy Spirit, what does he question?
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3 And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?” So they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”

Once Paul finds the problem, he fixes it by baptizing them in the name of Jesus, which is in agreement with Matt. 28:19.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
Grosnick Marowbe said:
I don't read, what I consider to be, long return postings. If you can
condense your thoughts to a few sentences, I'll take a look.
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1. John wrote his letters and his gospel in the last ten years of the First Century long after the deaths of Peter and Paul. The issues of his day were not the same as they had been.

2. History records that he lived in Ephesus and that he was a leader over the Churches of Asia minor. This role is stated in the writings of the Apostolic "Fathers." many of whom knew John personally.

3. Also in the Revelation Christ speaks to the seven Churches of Asia minor through John. This also affirms that he had a leadership role in those Churches

4. At that time in history the Churches were predominantly Gentile not Jewish.

5. The themes of John's gospel are not Jewish but universal and deal with how to be saved through faith in Christ.

6. John's letters do not deal with Judaism. He says nothing about the Judaizers, the rite of circumcision, keeping the festivals or Sabbath They were written to combat Gnosticism, a religion which rose out of Greek philosophy and Eastern Mysticism.

Your belief (really the MAD belief) that John's writings were aimed at the Jews is without grounds.

I put this as succinctly as I could but I had 6 points. How am I supposed to condense that to a few sentences
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
musterion said:
Naw, only the ultimate fulfillment of it.

Rev 7:4, 21:12
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You do not understand the point of contention. He made the claim that
They (the Gospels and writings of John) don't concern the Gentiles nor the Body of Christ. So, whatever point you're trying to make, only concern the Hebrews.
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The fact that Revelation contains prophecies that concern Jewish people does not make John's other writings applicable ONLY to Jewish believers who lived in the first half of the First Century. I have shown internal and external evidence that this was simply not true.

MAD judges all non-Pauline writings to be no longer "inspired by God and profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness." They believe that the Four Gospels together with the teachings of Jesus they contain are obsolete.

When I made a case for my beliefs using scriptures taken from the Gospel of John this poster said that those passages, in effect, that the teachings found in John's Gospel were for another time and another people. I believe I have made my point that the MAD understanding of John's ministry and message is distorted and erroneous. Even the historic details of John's life must be edited to make it fit this doctrine.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Grosnick Marowbe said:
I noticed that you use the book of John a lot, in order to make
your point. You do realize that the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John) were written to/about the House of Israel, correct?

They don't concern the Gentiles nor the Body of Christ. So, whatever
point you're trying to make, only concern the Hebrews.
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Your post was madness speaking.

Listen to Jesus for a change.

Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
Joh 14:4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Joh 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Joh 14:7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
Joh 14:8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
Joh 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Joh 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
Joh 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Joh 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Joh 14:14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
turbosixx said:
steko said:
turbosixx said:
My intention is not to separate. I'm not sure what your point is as to me separating them.


Ok, I see your point. My understanding is the purpose of the miracles was to to prove that what the apostles are saying is the truth and from God as the last verse states.
Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

If you will notice, the signs were done by the apostles and the only others able to do the signs were those they laid hands on. Here Paul wants to give spiritual gifts but it's obvious he has to be there to do it.
Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established—

Once the word was confirmed and written down we no longer need the miracles. I like the story of the rich man and Lazarus to show that what we have written is sufficient compared to miracles.
Luke 16:31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”


Thanks for the color help. For some reason I thought that was fill color and not text color.
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The miraculous are the evidence of the Spirit of Heaven which accompanies all those truly sent by the Lord.

There is no cut off point to this---

Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:
Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?
Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Act 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,
Act 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
Act 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.
Act 4:32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.
Act 4:33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

before Paul!

LA
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Jamie Gigliotti

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
turbosixx said:
If it's stupid to be able to understand how the entire NT from Matt.-Rev. works and being able to see total agreement from one book to another, I'm fine with being stupid.
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There is no contradiction.
Losing your life is being a slave to God, sowing to His Spirit, loving because of Him in us, His love and light in us. Jesus will take care of the end. We're commanded to remain in Him. What's the fight? You don't think He can do in us what He says? Or you don't want to let Him? Maybe you really don't want Him now... You just want His fire insurance.
 
Shasta

Shasta

Well-known member
musterion said:
You've been around us long enough to know that is not what any MAD believes, so you are a liar.
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When I quote Jesus' teachings and am told "that was for the Jews" (i.e., it's the "Jewish Gospel") what am I to conclude except that MAD holds that the Four Gospels (and all non-Pauline writings) are not for "doctrine" and "instruction in righteousness." This makes them irrelevant and obsolete. Very often we are told that they actually run contrary to the Pauline "Gospel of Grace."

I agree that what I said is not how a diplomatic proponent of MAD would describe their view but I do believe what I said is the bottom line. Non-Pauline writings are "for another people in another time in another dispensation." The Word is thus sliced and diced causing dispensations to multiply like rabbits until you cannot read and accept the words without layers of analysis.

This shows how out-of-tune MAD is from Historic Christianity which ALWAYS considered ALL the NT writings equally inspired and authoritative. For me to express MAD's doctrines in an extreme way is simply for me to describe MAD for the extreme view that it is.

If I have Inadvertently misrepresented MAD's view (which is really a conglomerate of different views) then I am sure you, or someone from that camp can correct what I have said. Before I accept that my remarks are inaccurate you will have to show me in what way they are. A simple denial is not enough.
 
glorydaz

glorydaz

Well-known member
Shasta said:
When I quote Jesus' teachings and am told "that was for the Jews" (i.e., it's the "Jewish Gospel") what am I to conclude except that MAD holds that the Four Gospels (and all non-Pauline writings) are not for "doctrine" and "instruction in righteousness." This makes them irrelevant and obsolete. Very often we are told that they actually run contrary to the Pauline "Gospel of Grace."

I agree that what I said is not how a diplomatic proponent of MAD would describe their view but I do believe what I said is the bottom line. Non-Pauline writings are "for another people in another time in another dispensation." The Word is thus sliced and diced causing dispensations to multiply like rabbits until you cannot read and accept the words without layers of analysis.

This shows how out-of-tune MAD is from Historic Christianity which ALWAYS considered ALL the NT writings equally inspired and authoritative. For me to express MAD's doctrines in an extreme way is simply for me to describe MAD for the extreme view that it is.

If I have Inadvertently misrepresented MAD's view (which is really a conglomerate of different views) then I am sure you, or someone from that camp can correct what I have said. Before I accept that my remarks are inaccurate you will have to show me in what way they are. A simple denial is not enough.
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All of Scripture is inspired. The question for you then becomes do you follow the dietary laws that were given to the Jews? Do you keep all the Sabbath laws? Do you bring a lamb to the priest to make an offering for your sins? Were those things written TO YOU?
 
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