"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[glorydaz]

Best to ask an actual Calvinist. We Reformed hold to perseverance of the saints, not OSAS.

OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.

To dig deeper:
View attachment 20167

AMR

A rose by any other name......

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A rose by any other name......

I tend to agree when only assuming the casual observer's views on the security of the believer. It is when these folk are pressed about what this security really means that more details are necessary.

The issue is the post modern climate where OSAS is often given over to soft or even strident Antinomianism. Hence careful distinctions are required, given the popular ideas of OSAS versus perseverance of the saints. The former leads to punctiliar ideas of salvation ("walked the aisle, signed the pledge card, now I am done"), while the latter keeps the focus on one's continued walk of faith ever-guided and made certain by the Lord.

AMR

 

[Ktoyou]

Hence careful distinctions are required, given the popular ideas of OSAS versus perseverance of the saints. The former leads to punctiliar ideas of salvation ("walked the aisle, signed the pledge card, now I am done"), while the latter keeps the focus on one's continued walk of faith ever-guided and made certain by the Lord.

AMR

When one thinks about what the pastor said, it occurs to me the pasture was correct, saying near what you are saying here?

Had the OP any faith he would walk in that faith, rather than dwell on sin.

 

[Shasta]

IN HIM.....that's where you need to be.

Romans 8:1-2
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.​

In Him speaks of our position. We have to be united to Him not separate. The next phrase "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" shows that life with God is not static but conditioned on our active and ongoing response

 

[musterion]

OSAS is verifiable based on the promise of Scripture. If one believes the Gospel of the grace of God, they are justified and declared dead to Law, thereby made unconditionally eternally secure in Christ. There's no alternative. That guarantee is given to anyone who will just believe the Gospel.

Perseverance of the saints, on the other hand, cannot be verified this side of death because God has not told us who is and is not His purported elect. Add to that the Calvinism's very real possibility of spurious, false, withering, temporal faith and one (if he's honest) soon finds uncertainty and doubt are baked into the cake of Calvinism. That is why lordship salvation exists.

There is no fear in the doctrine of eternal security, aka OSAS. There is an element of fear in perseverance; the very name says so.

Point is, OSAS and perseverance are absolutely not the same doctrine. Only the unlearned or ignorant assume that they are.

 

[musterion]

Redpill, so how about it? Can someone have salvation, lose it, then get it back again? I know why you won't answer this question...whether you answer yes or no, the result is not good for you.

I also believe you've been here before.

 

[glorydaz]

In Him speaks of our position. We have to be united to Him not separate. The next phrase "who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit" shows that life with God is not static but conditioned on our active and ongoing response

No it does not. You can't make things up as you go along. Paul makes it perfectly clear what he is talking about....he doesn't need your "help" explaining anything.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Salvation is not one time confession.

Get real.

Get a new hat.

 

[glorydaz]

OSAS is verifiable based on the promise of Scripture. If one believes the Gospel of the grace of God, they are justified and declared dead to Law, thereby made unconditionally eternally secure in Christ. There's no alternative. That guarantee is given to anyone who will just believe the Gospel.

Perseverance of the saints, on the other hand, cannot be verified this side of death because God has not told us who is and is not His purported elect. Add to that the Calvinism's very real possibility of spurious, false, withering, temporal faith and one (if he's honest) soon finds uncertainty and doubt are baked into the cake of Calvinism. That is why lordship salvation exists.

There is no fear in the doctrine of eternal security, aka OSAS. There is an element of fear in perseverance; the very name says so.

Point is, OSAS and perseverance are absolutely not the same doctrine. Only the unlearned or ignorant assume that they are.

Amen, and it's a question of WHO is doing the work in us.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.​

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No it does not. You can't make things up as you go along. Paul makes it perfectly clear what he is talking about....he doesn't need your "help" explaining anything.

Romans 8:9-10 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.​

True.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

wishful salvation.

Wish you would take a long vacation and not come back until
we beg you to return.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jesus is an eternal God. He died for all our sins past present, and future.
The old man died and is no more. Once the sin has been washed away there is no going back.

Yep

 

[glorydaz]

I tend to agree when only assuming the casual observer's views on the security of the believer. It is when these folk are pressed about what this security really means that more details are necessary.

The issue is the post modern climate where OSAS is often given over to soft or even strident Antinomianism. Hence careful distinctions are required, given the popular ideas of OSAS versus perseverance of the saints. The former leads to punctiliar ideas of salvation ("walked the aisle, signed the pledge card, now I am done"), while the latter keeps the focus on one's continued walk of faith ever-guided and made certain by the Lord.

AMR

True there are some who have a false idea of salvation on our side, but there are some who turn your "perseverance" into works that they have to do to be saved. If we were honest with each other, we'd see that believers indeed meet in the middle and agree.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yikes!

AMR

Explain, if you will? If not, it doesn't matter. I stick by what I posted.

 

[patrick jane]

OSAS Add to that the Calvinism's very real possibility of spurious, false, withering, temporal faith and one (if he's honest) soon finds uncertainty and doubt are baked into the cake of Calvinism. That is why lordship salvation exists.

There is no fear in the doctrine of eternal security, aka OSAS. There is an element of fear in perseverance; the very name says so.

Point is, OSAS and perseverance are absolutely not the same doctrine. Only the unlearned or ignorant assume that they are.

i like pie -

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We know from history that your premise is completely false. When John wrote his letters, his gospel and the Revelation he was living in Ephesus and was the pre-eminent leader of the Churches of Asia Minor many of which Paul had started some 30 years before.

All Johns works were produced in the last decade of the First Century at a time when Gentiles were the majority in the Church. Of the four gospels John's was the least ethnically focused and most universal?

The tone and subject matter of his writings was not Jewish but aimed at the public at large. When you read John's letters you do not find him dealing with matters that were of concern in the earlier part of the First Century like the Judaizers and issues pertaining to keeping the law. John's letters deal with Docetism, an early form of Gnosticism which arose, not out of Jewish factions but from a synthesis of Greek philosophy and mysticism.

Internal and external evidence show that you do not have any basis to dismiss the writings of John as you have.

In answer to your question about why I used John a lot It is because He spoke a lot about the nature of eternal life.

I don't read, what I consider to be, long return postings. If you can
condense your thoughts to a few sentences, I'll take a look.

 

[rougueone]

Salvation is not one time confession.

Get real.

Welcome back Meshak, Hmmm, Gods words disagree with your position. Let's also consider the thief on the cross.
Romans 10: 8,9,10,11,12 ....

But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART "-- that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.…

Meshak, we had a similar talk awhile back. And I stated, Your " playing it safe". That's a good place to be. And when I stated this to you, my very statement to you , spoke to my heart and I have also taken a new approach to my salvation. I am more diligent to obeying God, seeking God in even the little things, to further my intimacy with Holy Spirit. Hey it is always better to side in caution with God, because in doing so we know we have constant reverence for God.

 

[rougueone]

i like pie -

Or Patrick, is there more fear, as a person who knows they are saved realizes his salvation is not a licence to kill. But a much, higher calling, with tremendous responsibility. And although I know I am saved, as my adoption papers are signed in Holy Blood. I will, like all, stand before my Lord. Hoping I glorified God with what HE gave me, and spoke to me. My eternal rewards. A one shot deal . Fear of the Lord is the ultimate thing to hold in ones heart.

 

[turbosixx]

That is not "the gospel" that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth

Please explain how it is not? It says gospel, believes and saved. Everything you say it's not but that is exactly what it says.


15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

 

[turbosixx]

There are many gospels. Gospel simply means "good news".

It's folks like you that think that there is only ONE good news in the Bible that are wrong.

Is there more than one good news that can save?