"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[steko]

My intention is not to separate. I'm not sure what your point is as to me separating them.

Having been saved in the midst of a charismatic congregation, after 35+ years, I've never witnessed the claimed charismatic reality, though I frequently hobnob with charismatics. They appear to me to be self-diluted.
If one wants to claim the commission of Mark 16, then, they ought to demonstrate it, for real, with empirical evidence.
If they can't demonstrate it for real, then, they might seriously question why these things are not actually happening at this time.

Thanks for the tip. I like the color but don't know how to use it.

It's simple:

Click and hold on the line you want to color as you drag across it to turn blue.
Then click on the down pointing arrow to the right of the 'A' with the dark line underneath it.
This will give you a chart of colors.
Click on the color you want and it will color the line that you clicked and dragged on. The A is at the middle of the very top of your post window between the 'Sizes' and the .

 

[steko]

Israel has no future but other in Christ now.

Luk 24:25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe ALL that the prophets have spoken:

 

[heir]

This doesn't make sense to me. What has changed? Why would there be different ordinances? The gospel is simple and for everyone.

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

That is not "the gospel" that is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth (Romans 1:16 KJV at the time Paul wrote Romans-to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Today, to all men 1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV). Paul could not have been sent not to baptize, if it were (1 Corinthians 1:17 KJV)! And I hope you really looked at that last verse! Wooo!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

And I'm glad you have taken the time to see that. One thing you might think about is that the baptism of John was for a specific purpose and time. After our Lord was risen from the dead, He gave Paul revelations that pertained to salvation by grace through faith. When we believe Paul's gospel, we are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when He comes to dwell in us. That is not John's baptism of water. Others can explain it much better than I can, but I've been a Christian for a long time and I didn't really understand why things were different before the cross and after the cross....but they are and there is good reason. Mainly that Jesus came for the lost sheep of Israel, and later Paul was sent to the rest of us (gentiles). If you remain open to that, you'll be able to see more clearly what is kinda confusing now.

All of the Apostles were sent to all of the nations gentiles.

Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. Act 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
Act 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Peter was the first to preach the gospel to the gentiles--

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

LA

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

@Shasta maybe I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying OSAS is a part of the Calvinistic Doctrine?

Best to ask an actual Calvinist. We Reformed hold to perseverance of the saints, not OSAS.

OSAS is a johnny-one-note doctrine that comforts the comfortable and disturbed conscience alike with a smothering salve. It usually teaches that "doubt" is the worst sin, and is the one thing that would demonstrate a lack of salvation. Thus, it offers almost nothing of genuine grace to the trembling soul; and for the casual "believer," it assists him in searing his conscience. In either case, the utmost confidence is urged in an act of the human will.

To dig deeper:
View attachment 20167

AMR

 

[turbosixx]

My intention is not to separate. I'm not sure what your point is as to me separating them.

Having been saved in the midst of a charismatic congregation, after 35+ years, I've never witnessed the claimed charismatic reality, though I frequently hobnob with charismatics. They appear to me to be self-diluted.
If one wants to claim the commission of Mark 16, then, they ought to demonstrate it, for real, with empirical evidence.
If they can't demonstrate it for real, then, they might seriously question why these things are not actually happening at this time.




It's simple:

Click and hold on the line you want to color as you drag across it to turn blue.
Then click on the down pointing arrow to the right of the 'A' with the dark line underneath it.
This will give you a chart of colors.
Click on the color you want and it will color the line that you clicked and dragged on. The A is at the middle of the very top of your post window between the 'Sizes' and the .

Ok, I see your point. My understanding is the purpose of the miracles was to to prove that what the apostles are saying is the truth and from God as the last verse states.
Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

If you will notice, the signs were done by the apostles and the only others able to do the signs were those they laid hands on. Here Paul wants to give spiritual gifts but it's obvious he has to be there to do it.
Rom. 1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established—

Once the word was confirmed and written down we no longer need the miracles. I like the story of the rich man and Lazarus to show that what we have written is sufficient compared to miracles.
Luke 16:31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’ ”


Thanks for the color help. For some reason I thought that was fill color and not text color.

 

[rougueone]

I met a pastor who preached OSAS. He said after a person accepts christ as saviour then his entry to heaven (eternal life) is secured. I asked what if he commits adultery and not repent and not get forgiveness from God. He still said that he would go but God would discipline him (he might even kill him). So i put forth a question in the following way and he could not answer it. He said go and read John's Gospel and you will understand.

notation : M --> me, P ---> the pastor

M: Is God holy?
P: Yes.
M: Does sin dwell in God's place?
P:No.
M: So if a commits adultery he will be disciplined (God might
kill him) but he will go to heaven.
P: yes.
M: Then what happens to the sin he committed ?
P: it will still be there.
M: Who will be accountable for the sin he committed. He did not ask
for forgiveness .
P: the sin will be there.
M: if that sin is still there how will he go to heaven.?
P: why are you focusing on sin leave it.
M: its because that's the thing that separates man from God.
P: you are not a man of God or else you would have simply believed instead of asking these many questions.

and he left.. can anyone answer this question.." who will be held accountable for the unforgiven sin even when the believer has not repented and asked for forgiveness".

ps. i believe that OSAS is false... dont say a true believer will never sin......

IF OSAS is a lie. Then what all we are doing here ? If false, then everything Jesus committed to is gone. What motivates us, drives us, causes us to commit to Holy works ? A dice throw ? an unknown hope?

Yes, I sin. I don't know where people think OSAS means a sinless life. But our sins are forgiven. We do not walk disregarding sin. WE are hyper-sensitive to sin. And we repent, and seek forgiveness.


Being saved is what drives me. It is not a license to kill or sin. It does raise the bar dramatically in our accountability and intimacy with Jesus. Knowing your saved is the motivator to follow Jesus.

 

[Right Divider]

I know they are one and the same but there are those who say there is more than one.

There are many gospels. Gospel simply means "good news".

It's folks like you that think that there is only ONE good news in the Bible that are wrong.

 

[musterion]

But our sins are forgiven.

And we repent, and seek forgiveness.

:think:

 

[Shasta]

Eternal means FOREVER and EVER.

You seem to be the naive one.

Joh 5:24 KJV Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
​

I guess that, according you, someone can continually PASS from DEATH UNTO LIFE and back UNTO DEATH ..... again and again and again......

You are making eternal life into an endless extention of OUR existence which we obtain once for all and possess thereafter without condition as an attribute of our being. In the scriptures eternal life resides IN the Son. We receive it on an ongoing basis from Him as we abide in Him. It is not a blessing we can enjoy apart from ongoing union with Him.

The need to actively abide in Christ is expressed in John 15:4-5 where Jesus is shown to be the Vine. "Abide in me" He said. "Abide in" means, "dwell in," "remain in," "continue in" Through maintaining this faith relationship we continue to receive life-giving "sap" from the vine, and enjoy HIS life which has the property of being eternal. The life we have is derivative. We receive it conditionally by continuing in the faith.

That this IS how eternal life is received and experienced is shown by the following verse:

IF what you heard from the beginning abides (remains, continues) in you, you also will abide (remain, continue) in the Son and in the Father. And THIS is the promise that he made to us—eternal life (1 John 2:24-25).

The promise of eternal life is unconditional. Its continuance in us depends on our continuing in the truth of the Gospel. According to this verse if we do not continue in the teachings of the Faith we will not stay in the flow of His life.

You asked whether a person who has passed into life can pass out of it again. There are many sciptures that address this. One is here:

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).

This refers to a person who was connected to the vine but who does not remain there. Withering is the slow desiccation that occurs after a branch has separated itself from the vine. Eventually, when it is completely dry it is gathered up and burned. These individuals can return until their heart becomes so hardened that they do not want to which is the sin of Apostasy. Jude calls individuals like this "twice dead" meaning that they were dead initially (as unbelievers) but that they subsequently died again so they were "twice dead." I do not think God does not has a numerical quota of how many times he will restore a lapsed believer to repentance. In time, however, their heart will become so hardened that they WILL not repent.

We do not really own eternal life. Eternal life is a property of God alone (1 Tim 6:16) which He has given to reside in the Son (John 5:26). We only borrow it from the Son as we abide in Him.

All the descriptors of the new life describe it not as a static state but as something ongoing and in motion

The water of (eternal) life given to the Christian to drink is the Holy Spirit of Life (John 7:38-39). We become alive initially by that drink but subsequently that drink becomes a well of water "springing up" inside us unto eternal life (John 4:14). Eternal life is shown to be something we must continue to drink.

Eternal life is also compared to manna which did not come once but every day. They could not even store the manna over night. After comparing Himself to this "bread from heaven" Jesus explains how the new life is experienced:

57 As the living Father sent me, and I LIVE because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me (continually), he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds (continually) on this bread will live forever” (John 6:57)

To live forever we must stay connected to our Source of life. Jesus says here that His own source of life as a human being was not in and of Himself. He lived BY the Father, that is, it was THROUGH union with and dependence upon God that He enjoyed the Father's own life. (Eternal) Life was not something He enjoyed apart from active union with the Father.

Jesus' walk involved pleasing the Father. He said "I do always what pleases the Father." We are to live BY Jesus the same way He lived BY the Father. AS we do we enjoy Christ's life just as He did the Father's.

That eternal life is more than simply an endless extension of our own existence can be seen here (John 17:3) The word "know" here means to know relationally. Eternal life is personal relationship and communion with Him.

The common mistake, I believe is to make eternal life either a static legal status or a deposit of Divine essence. Eternal life is derivative. It is borrowed from Him. We do not have it as a permanent feature of our existence. We cannot earn it. We do not deserve it. We can only share it with Him as we walk with Him in faith. AS long as we abide there we enjoy the eternality that is a quality of His life.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You are making eternal life into an endless extention of OUR existence which we obtain once for all and possess thereafter without condition as an attribute of our being. In the scriptures eternal life resides IN the Son. We receive it on an ongoing basis from Him as we abide in Him. It is not a blessing we can enjoy apart from ongoing union with Him.

The need to actively abide in Christ is expressed in John 15:4-5 where Jesus is shown to be the Vine. "Abide in me" He said. "Abide in" means, "dwell in," "remain in," "continue in" Through maintaining this faith relationship we continue to receive life-giving "sap" from the vine, and enjoy HIS life which has the property of being eternal. The life we have is derivative. We receive it conditionally by continuing in the faith.

That this IS how eternal life is received and experienced is shown by the following verse:

IF what you heard from the beginning abides (remains, continues) in you, you also will abide (remain, continue) in the Son and in the Father. And THIS is the promise that he made to us—eternal life (1 John 2:24-25).

The promise of eternal life is unconditional. Its continuance in us depends on our continuing in the truth of the Gospel. According to this verse if we do not continue in the teachings of the Faith we will not stay in the flow of His life.

You asked whether a person who has passed into life can pass out of it again. There are many sciptures that address this. One is here:

6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned (John 15:6).

This refers to a person who was connected to the vine but who does not remain there. Withering is the slow desiccation that occurs after a branch has separated itself from the vine. Eventually, when it is completely dry it is gathered up and burned. These individuals can return until their heart becomes so hardened that they do not want to which is the sin of Apostasy. Jude calls individuals like this "twice dead" meaning that they were dead initially (as unbelievers) but that they subsequently died again so they were "twice dead." I do not think God does not has a numerical quota of how many times he will restore a lapsed believer to repentance. In time, however, their heart will become so hardened that they WILL not repent.

We do not really own eternal life. Eternal life is a property of God alone (1 Tim 6:16) which He has given to reside in the Son (John 5:26). We only borrow it from the Son as we abide in Him.

All the descriptors of the new life describe it not as a static state but as something ongoing and in motion

The water of (eternal) life given to the Christian to drink is the Holy Spirit of Life (John 7:38-39). We become alive initially by that drink but subsequently that drink becomes a well of water "springing up" inside us unto eternal life (John 4:14). Eternal life is shown to be something we must continue to drink.

Eternal life is also compared to manna which did not come once but every day. They could not even store the manna over night. After comparing Himself to this "bread from heaven" Jesus explains how the new life is experienced:

57 As the living Father sent me, and I LIVE because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me (continually), he also will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the bread the fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds (continually) on this bread will live forever” (John 6:57)

To live forever we must stay connected to our Source of life. Jesus says here that His own source of life as a human being was not in and of Himself. He lived BY the Father, that is, it was THROUGH union with and dependence upon God that He enjoyed the Father's own life. (Eternal) Life was not something He enjoyed apart from active union with the Father.

Jesus' walk involved pleasing the Father. He said "I do always what pleases the Father." We are to live BY Jesus the same way He lived BY the Father. AS we do we enjoy Christ's life just as He did the Father's.

That eternal life is more than simply an endless extension of our own existence can be seen here (John 17:3) The word "know" here means to know relationally. Eternal life is personal relationship and communion with Him.

The common mistake, I believe is to make eternal life either a static legal status or a deposit of Divine essence. Eternal life is derivative. It is borrowed from Him. We do not have it as a permanent feature of our existence. We cannot earn it. We do not deserve it. We can only share it with Him as we walk with Him in faith. AS long as we abide there we enjoy the eternality that is a quality of His life.

I noticed that you use the book of John a lot, in order to make
your point. You do realize that the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John) were written to/about the House of Israel, correct?

They don't concern the Gentiles nor the Body of Christ. So, whatever
point you're trying to make, only concern the Hebrews.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

IF OSAS is a lie. Then what all we are doing here ? If false, then everything Jesus committed to is gone. What motivates us, drives us, causes us to commit to Holy works ? A dice throw ? an unknown hope?

Yes, I sin. I don't know where people think OSAS means a sinless life. But our sins are forgiven. We do not walk disregarding sin. WE are hyper-sensitive to sin. And we repent, and seek forgiveness.


Being saved is what drives me. It is not a license to kill or sin. It does raise the bar dramatically in our accountability and intimacy with Jesus. Knowing your saved is the motivator to follow Jesus.

Good post

 

[patrick jane]

IF OSAS is a lie.

Yes, I sin. I don't know where people think OSAS means a sinless life. But our sins are forgiven. We do not walk disregarding sin. WE are hyper-sensitive to sin. And we repent, and seek forgiveness.

well i don't repeatedly repent (change of mind) because i'm not living in sin, and i don't SEEK forgiveness; I have it ! !

 

[Shasta]

I know they are one and the same but there are those who say there is more than one.

The proponents of "Mid-Acts Dispensationalism" claim that there are from two to as many as six different gospels. As a consequence, they downgrade the writings of all the NT writers except for Paul saying that they are written to people in other mini-dispensations. For instance, they claim the writings of the original Apostles and even the teachings of Jesus Himself are "not written TO us but FOR us" which means simply that they should not be taken by today's believers as being either relevant or authoritative. There are different factions within the movement so it is usually hard to get a coherent idea of what they believe.

I believe the factions are due to their poor hermeneutical methology. As far as I can tell the do not establish their beliefs on the basis of exegesis but on "inferencing" which has been defined as the act or process of deriving logical conclusions from premises known or assumed to be true. The problem is that you would have to first accept their premise before you would interpret the scriptures as they do. Thus their hermeneutic is based on circular reasoning followed by eisegesis.

They strain at texts to make their premises fit, capitalizing if necessary on minor terminological differences, such as the Gospel of Christ, Gospel of the Grace of God the Gospel of the Kingdom and the Gospel of God even though at the time the Bible was written no such distinctions were being made. No one in the NT actually states that all these DIFFERENT Gospels exist much less do they explain the differences between them. To me this raises a warning flag.

The M.A.D. view is also not historical since none of the successors to the Apostles, the so-called "Church Fathers" expressed any knowledge of these ideas.

 

[meshak]

IF OSAS is a lie. Then what all we are doing here ?

Salvation is not one time confession.

Get real.

 

[dumachael]

Jesus is an eternal God. He died for all our sins past present, and future.
The old man died and is no more. Once the sin has been washed away there is no going back.

 

[meshak]

Jesus is an eternal God. He died for all our sins past present, and future.
The old man died and is no more. Once the sin has been washed away there is no going back.

wishful salvation.

 

[meshak]

Jesus is an eternal God. He died for all our sins past present, and future.
The old man died and is no more. Once the sin has been washed away there is no going back.

Jesus says narrow is the gate to salvation and only a few inter through it.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I noticed that you use the book of John a lot, in order to make
your point. You do realize that the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John) were written to/about the House of Israel, correct?

They don't concern the Gentiles nor the Body of Christ. So, whatever
point you're trying to make, only concern the Hebrews.

Yikes!

AMR

 

[Shasta]

I noticed that you use the book of John a lot, in order to make
your point. You do realize that the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark,
Luke and John) were written to/about the House of Israel, correct?

They don't concern the Gentiles nor the Body of Christ. So, whatever
point you're trying to make, only concern the Hebrews.

We know from history that your premise is completely false. When John wrote his letters, his gospel and the Revelation he was living in Ephesus and was the pre-eminent leader of the Churches of Asia Minor many of which Paul had started some 30 years before.

All Johns works were produced in the last decade of the First Century at a time when Gentiles were the majority in the Church. Of the four gospels John's was the least ethnically focused and most universal?

The tone and subject matter of his writings was not Jewish but aimed at the public at large. When you read John's letters you do not find him dealing with matters that were of concern in the earlier part of the First Century like the Judaizers and issues pertaining to keeping the law. John's letters deal with Docetism, an early form of Gnosticism which arose, not out of Jewish factions but from a synthesis of Greek philosophy and mysticism.

Internal and external evidence show that you do not have any basis to dismiss the writings of John as you have.

In answer to your question about why I used John a lot It is because He spoke a lot about the nature of eternal life.