"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

[ttruscott]

Problem with all that?

Oh I know the theory based upon our being created on earth but the problem is you just walked by the points I made as if you didn't even read them but by not answering the implications I brought up, you have NOT advanced the fanciful theory we inherited more than death from Adam and through no fault or choice of ourselves are suddenly born evil but devalued it.

I think you cannot answer the points I made and will not even try as you are just too committed to inherited sin.

 

[Derf]

:thumb: And neither was Jesus.

The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father.

If we die "in Adam", but Jesus was never "in Adam", then He didn't carry with Him the curse of death from His birth. Thus, He had the capacity to die for someone else, whereas the rest of us are appointed to die.

Paul was born with death as his destiny. Jesus was, too, but not for the same reason--His destiny was to die for the whole world, whereas Paul could only die for himself, whether or not he sinned.

I don't know if that equates to inherited guilt, or just inherited punishment. And does it make any difference? If children die due to Adam's sin, they still really die, and they need resurrection. That resurrection is provided solely by Jesus Christ, who conquered death and will finally conquer death in all of us.

I wonder, then, since [1Co 15:26 KJV] "The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death", and all will be resurrected, some to new life and some to eternal damnation, what is it that is so heinous about our sin that the promised penalty, death, is not good enough but everybody needs to be resurrected to be subjected to something worse (I assume hell is worse than death). Seems to me to be the rejection of God's only Son.

 

[jamie]

The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father.

A claim is made that his mother was human.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father.

If we die "in Adam", but Jesus was never "in Adam", then He didn't carry with Him the curse of death from His birth. Thus, He had the capacity to die for someone else, whereas the rest of us are appointed to die.

Yes, all of us are appointed to die physically (except for those who will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air) and that is a result to Adam's sin (Gen.3:22-24).

On the other hand, men die spiritually as a result of their own sins and not Adam's sin.

 

[ttruscott]

I do not think that the struggle felt in the womb of Rebecca had anything to do with anyone sinning:

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11).​

Perhaps the following explanation is valid:

"And the children struggled together within her,.... When she was quick with child: this was some time before her delivery, and was not a common and ordinary motion felt by women in such circumstances, but an extraordinary one; the two children in her strove with each other, as if it was for mastery, or who should get out first before the proper time; which not only gave her great uneasiness of mind, but pain of body: this was an emblem of the future difference between those two children" (John Gill, Exposition of the Entire Bible, Commentary at Genesis 25:32)​

.

IF the phrase
neither having done any good or evil, modifies that the purpose of God according to election might stand, and NOT "For the children being not yet born, then the import is that election is proven to be the choice of GOD, not by the works of man as proven by the fact that Jacob was elect before he was born and therefore before he could do any earthly good or evil act as a human.

This is not denied by his being a sinner before he was born since it is only talking about acts after birth as the phrase For the children being not yet born," suggests.

As in 2 Timothy 1:9 - Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to HIS own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

This Scripture does not prove that we existed before our conception. The reason I am including it is that I believe that it does not invalidate preconception theology, and I am sure a lot of people will think that it and others like it do.

May I submit that when the Scriptures speak of works in relation to our election, they are referring to only our works after we're born, i.e., no one was elected on account of any works they would do in this life.

1 Timothy 5:21 - I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels.

Angels are a lot different than men (at least, that is what many believe), i.e., they do not have what is usually called “racial solidarity”. This means that they have to make all their own choices.No one else can make them for them and they can not be held accountable for someone else's evil choices.

In other words, Adam's choices do not affect them at all (supposedly). Perhaps you would like to tell me on what basis GOD elected only some of them? If it was not on the basis of their individual choices, then they had to be elected before the satanic rebellion, at least. But if GOD's election took place before the satanic rebellion,would this not lead us into the pretty incredulous situation of some unblemished creatures being unjustly unpredestined to remain in heaven?

And what reasonable basis can we put forward for this situation other than HE simply did not want them to be with HIM forever?This situation does not look too good, does it?

Well then, what if no one was elected before the rebellion, that is, what if GOD's election took place after the rebellion? Then GOD's election took place after they all had made an eternal choice, and presumably that choice would be taken into account when GOD was doing HIS electing. It would have to be if HE was holy and just.
Now, the main thing I am trying to bring out with all of this is that when we just begin to consider the election of angels, we run into some pretty unreasonable implications if we leave out their choice as being a part of the basis of their election, and the only other real alternative necessitates that we accept that their eternal choice was at least a part of the basis of their election.

Well, if you are willing to accept the possibility of their choice - works being a part of the basis of their election, why can that not be a part of the basis of ours too?

 

[ttruscott]

I do not think that the struggle felt in the womb of Rebecca had anything to do with anyone sinning.

Genesis 25:22 The babies jostled each other within her, and she said, "Why is this happening to me?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.
To jostle, struggle is way·yiṯ·rō·ṣă·ṣū וַיִּתְרֹֽצֲצ֤וּ : ratsats: to crush to pieces

This Hithpo`el form of the verse is reciprocal, Imperfect 3masculine plural וִיִּתְרֹצְצוּ הַבָּנִים בְּקִרְבָּהּ Genesis 25:22 (J) the children crushed (thrust, struck) one another within her, that is they were fighting.

To my mind, one might have been fighting the other as an act of faithful obedience to GOD but not both, that is, one at least was being evil, unfaithful and not trusting in GOD to do right by him. Evil in the womb...

GOD also implied to Rebecca that they were fighting over the rights of the first born, who would serve who, or HIS answer is a non-sequitur and meaningless. So how did they know about this law to be able to fight for it? Hmmmmm...

 

[S-word]

The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father.

If we die "in Adam", but Jesus was never "in Adam", then He didn't carry with Him the curse of death from His birth. Thus, He had the capacity to die for someone else, whereas the rest of us are appointed to die.

Paul was born with death as his destiny. Jesus was, too, but not for the same reason--His destiny was to die for the whole world, whereas Paul could only die for himself, whether or not he sinned.

I don't know if that equates to inherited guilt, or just inherited punishment. And does it make any difference? If children die due to Adam's sin, they still really die, and they need resurrection. That resurrection is provided solely by Jesus Christ, who conquered death and will finally conquer death in all of us.

I wonder, then, since [1Co 15:26 KJV] "The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death", and all will be resurrected, some to new life and some to eternal damnation, what is it that is so heinous about our sin that the promised penalty, death, is not good enough but everybody needs to be resurrected to be subjected to something worse (I assume hell is worse than death). Seems to me to be the rejection of God's only Son.

The man Jesus was born of the flesh, by the union of two human parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios/Heli.

And Jesus was born the son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of the Lord, which descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly VOICE was heard to say; "You are my Son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee" or this day I have become your father.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

IF the phrase
neither having done any good or evil, modifies that the purpose of God according to election might stand, and NOT "For the children being not yet born, then the import is that election is proven to be the choice of GOD, not by the works of man as proven by the fact that Jacob was elect before he was born and therefore before he could do any earthly good or evil act as a human.

The Greek word translated "neither" is "a negative disjunctive conjuction used in continuing a negation or prohibition, 'but not,' 'and not,' 'neither' " (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore, the words "neither having done good or evil" are directly tied to the phrase "being not yet born":

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11)​

So what is said is before the twins were born neither of them did any good or evil. From that we can understand that neither of them sinned before they were born.

And after a person is born no one dies spiritually until he sins. That means that before he dies spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. So no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And Jesus was born the son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of the Lord, which descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly VOICE was heard to say; "You are my Son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee" or this day I have become your father.

Where do we read anywhere in the Bible that when the Spirit of the Lord descended on Him in the form of a dove a heavenly voice said: "You are my Son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee"?

In every instance where those words are spoken by the LORD about the Lord Jesus it is His resurrection which is in view.

 

[S-word]

Where do we read anywhere in the Bible that when the Spirit of the Lord descended on Him in the form of a dove a heavenly voice said: "You are my Son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee"?

In every instance where those words are spoken by the LORD about the Lord Jesus it is His resurrection which is in view.

Obviously, you have been deceived by the Roman church of Constantine's corrupted version of Luke 3: 22; which erroneously states; "“And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.”

Whereas, any seeker of the truth, would have studied the original authorities of Luke.

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D, and the most ancient copies of the old latin (a, b. c. ff.I), by Justin Martyr (AD 140), Clemens Alex, (AD. 190), Methodius (AD. 290), among the Greeks. And among the Latins, Lactaitius (AD 300), Hilary (AD) Juvencus (AD. 330), Faustus (AD. 400) and Augustine. All these oldest manuscripts were changed completely. They now read, “This is my son in whom I am well pleased.” Whereas the original variant was, “Thou art my Son. This day I have begotten thee.”

Also you will read in Hebrew 5:5; That Jesus did not take upon himself the honour of being High Priest, instead God said to him, "You are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father.

 

[jamie]

Also you will read in Hebrew 5:5; That Jesus did not take upon himself the honour of being High Priest, instead God said to him, "You are my Son, TODAY I have become your Father.

I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You." (Psalm 2:7)​

 

[S-word]

The Greek word translated "neither" is "a negative disjunctive conjuction used in continuing a negation or prohibition, 'but not,' 'and not,' 'neither' " (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

Therefore, the words "neither having done good or evil" are directly tied to the phrase "being not yet born":

"For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (Ro.9:11)​

So what is said is before the twins were born neither of them did any good or evil. From that we can understand that neither of them sinned before they were born.

And after a person is born no one dies spiritually until he sins. That means that before he dies spiritually he must first be alive spiritually. So no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

The only ones who die spiritually are those disembodied spirits (Who had suffered the first death, which is that of the bodies in which they were formed) who are refused entry into the generation of the Light beings and are cast back into the refining fires of physical life once more, (The second death, which is that of the mind/spirit) in the eternal cycle of rebirths, (Reincarnation)where those souls are stripped of their old spirits/minds, and new spirits/minds are formed in those souls, which are given new physical bodies, which bodies will be according to the heights that those minds had reached in their previous life.

 

[Derf]

The man Jesus was born of the flesh, by the union of two human parents, Mary and her half brother Joseph, who were both sired by Alexander Helios/Heli.

And Jesus was born the son of God, not by blood, nor by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the spirit of the Lord, which descended upon him in the form of a dove as the heavenly VOICE was heard to say; "You are my Son, 'THIS DAY' I have begotten thee" or this day I have become your father.

[Mat 1:20, 25 KJV] 20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost. ... 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

I guess you're talking about a miracle I haven't heard about, where a human can get another human pregnant without sexual relations.

 

[Derf]

A claim is made that his mother was human.

Yes. And...?

 

[Derf]

Yes, all of us are appointed to die physically (except for those who will be caught up to meet the Lord Jesus in the air) and that is a result to Adam's sin (Gen.3:22-24).

On the other hand, men die spiritually as a result of their own sins and not Adam's sin.

That's an interesting combination. I'll have to think about it.

Can you describe to me what spiritual death is?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Whereas, any seeker of the truth, would have studied the original authorities of Luke.

In Luke 3: 22; (In place of “Thou art my beloved son in who I am well pleased.”) The following authorities of the second, third, and fourth centuries read, “This day I have begotten thee,” vouched for by Codex D

So out of all the manuscripts there is only one which supports your conclusion?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

That's an interesting combination. I'll have to think about it.

Can you describe to me what spiritual death is?

Let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God. Here the Lord Jesus speaks of Spiritual life which comes to those who are spiritually dead:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

 

[S-word]

You are body, soul and spirit. Your body is created from the universal elements, and it is activated by the universal soul, which is the animating principle that pervades the entire universal body, activating everything within the universe, from the wave particles to the subatomic particles that make up the atoms which are the building blocks of the molecules from which the universal body is created. It is to the universal soul=LIFE-FORCE, that all information = SPIRIT is gathered.

“YOU” the mind, are spirit. The body in which you, [The mind] are developing as the supreme head and controller of that body, is made up of the universal elements, which is activated by the soul [Animating life force] to which all the spirit [gathered information] of all your ancestors, human and prehuman, has been gathered in its evolution to become who you are, and that parental spirit dwells behind the veil of the flesh to the inner most sanctuary of its earthly tabernacle=tent, which is your body.

If that body in which your parental spirit dwells, were born without the sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, etc, then no information whatsoever could be taken into the brain, and “YOU” who are spirit [Gathered information] could never have begun to develop and the living body, in which the parental spirit dwells, would soon die, never having developed a personality = “CONTROLLING GODHEAD” to that body, which godhead should be an obedient servant to “WHO YOU ARE.”

Then of the Thee in Me who works behind
The veil, I lifted up my hands to find
A lamp amid the Darkness; and I heard,
As from Without__ “The Me within Thee is blind.”.... By Omar Khayyam.
,
When the body in which you [the mind] are being formed, dies, [This is the first death] and your body: “skin, flesh, muscle, blood, bone, brain matter etc, etc,” has returned to the universal elements from which it was created, all that remains, is a shadow or rather, a facsimile of YOU = the mind=spirit, that has been imprinted into the universal life force=soul, from which it will be resurrected in the next cycle of universal activity.*Unless of course, the information=spirit that is “YOU” is divided from the universal life-force, which is the second death. For the spirit=information that is you, can be divided from the universal soul. Hebrews 4: 12.---------“For the word of God is alive and active, sharper than any two edged sword. It cuts all the way through to the division of the soul and spirit.”

 

[S-word]

Let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God. Here the Lord Jesus speaks of Spiritual life which comes to those who are spiritually dead:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

Jerry Shugart wrote......Let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

S-work OK, let's look.

Jerry Shugart........"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

S-word.......The Book of Jubilees 4: 30; And he (Adam) lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye shall die." For this reason he 31 did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Adam did die in the first day that he ate of the forbidden fruit, and The lord will judge the whole world with Justice on the seventh day of one thousand years, the great Sabbath of which the weekly Sabbath was but a shadow..

Jerry Shugart wrote......Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God. Here the Lord Jesus speaks of Spiritual life which comes to those who are spiritually dead:

S-word.....Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit that is You, who had formed in the physical body before it died, from the eternal soul=life force of God.

Jerry stugart wrote....... "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

S-word..... Thus said the Lord through the mouth of his obedient servant Jesus, who spoke not one word on his own authority, except that which he was commanded to say by the Lord God our saviour.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The only ones who die spiritually are those disembodied spirits (Who had suffered the first death, which is that of the bodies in which they were formed) who are refused entry into the generation of the Light beings and are cast back into the refining fires of physical life once more, (The second death, which is that of the mind/spirit) in the eternal cycle of rebirths, (Reincarnation)where those souls are stripped of their old spirits/minds, and new spirits/minds are formed in those souls, which are given new physical bodies, which bodies will be according to the heights that those minds had reached in their previous life.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).​

Reincarnation is based on the idea that a person dies numerous times.

Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit that is You, who had formed in the physical body before it died, from the eternal soul=life force of God.

Someone who is spiritually dead is without the "Spirit which is of God":

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" (1 Cor.2:11-12).​