"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

[jamie]

If Adam died spiritually that day, and Adam died physically some 900 years later, did he continue to exist somewhere...

No, those who have eternal life do not die, but that doesn't mean they are conscious.

 

[Brother Ducky]

What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!

Not to the point directly, but just something that crossed my mind.

If we assume there is no original sin, is the incarnation and all that results from Christ unnecessary, even if God wants a people for himself?

 

[popsthebuilder]

Not to the point directly, but just something that crossed my mind.

If we assume there is no original sin, is the incarnation and all that results from Christ unnecessary, even if God wants a people for himself?

Does the selfless conscience and Holy Spirit still convict us of our knowing sin?



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[Brother Ducky]

Does the selfless conscience and Holy Spirit still convict us of our knowing sin?



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Not sure what you mean here.

But at any rate, it does not seem to address the point of my post.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Not sure what you mean here.

But at any rate, it does not seem to address the point of my post.

It does address your post, you just didn't catch it.

The Christ is responsible for spreading the Holy Spirit throughout the congregation of the faithful unto GOD. So if we are convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit then the Christ's work stands as needed regardless of any particular doctrine, be it that of original sin, or another.

peace

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[Brother Ducky]

It does address your post, you just didn't catch it.

The Christ is responsible for spreading the Holy Spirit throughout the congregation of the faithful unto GOD. So if we are convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit then the Christ's work stands as needed regardless of any particular doctrine, be it that of original sin, or another.

peace

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Actually it does not address the post. It is argued in the OP that Original Sin is a false doctrine. If that is true, then all have the ability to not sin. If all have the ability to not sin, all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning. If all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning, there is no need for the incarnation for God to have fellowship with saved humans.

Not that there would not be the incarnation, for it would be needed if God chose to save those who, though having the ability to not sin, did indeed sin.

But the incarnation would not be required.

 

[jamie]

Actually it does not address the post. It is argued in the OP that Original Sin is a false doctrine. If that is true, then all have the ability to not sin.

Humans were designed to sin and the design has proven to be flawless. Sin comes as natural as breathing.

 

[Brother Ducky]

Humans were designed to sin and the design has proven to be flawless. Sin comes as natural as breathing.

While I would disagree with the idea of designed to sin, fallen humans sin. We do sin easily and well.

Your argument is not with me, but those who hold that there is no original sin.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Actually it does not address the post. It is argued in the OP that Original Sin is a false doctrine. If that is true, then all have the ability to not sin. If all have the ability to not sin, all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning. If all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning, there is no need for the incarnation for God to have fellowship with saved humans.

Not that there would not be the incarnation, for it would be needed if God chose to save those who, though having the ability to not sin, did indeed sin.

But the incarnation would not be required.

Knowing of sin is through the Holy Spirit which is from the Christ. Christ is the Way. Without his teachings, example, and self sacrifice, we would all be lost without hope of salvation. If you think that the Christ or His work is needed just because original sin is a false doctrine then that is your problem I suppose. The ability to not sin is imparted to us as actual faithful believers in the Word.

Your second to last statement was true. You corrected yourself. Kudos.

Since you know what makes the manifestation of GOD needed or not, perhaps you could explain why God would need to manifest itself in human form in order to be a blood sacrifice for itself so that people can continue in knowing sin and original sin?

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[Jerry Shugart]

It is argued in the OP that Original Sin is a false doctrine. If that is true, then all have the ability to not sin. If all have the ability to not sin, all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning. If all have the ability to save themselves by not sinning, there is no need for the incarnation for God to have fellowship with saved humans.

In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Sir Robert Anderson says:

" 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' The question was framed by a professional theologian, to test the orthodoxy of the great Rabbi of Nazareth. For evidently it was rumoured that the new Teacher was telling the people of a short road to Heaven. And the answer given was clear - no other answer, indeed, is possible; for what a man inherits is his by right - eternal life is the reward and goal of a perfect life on earth. A perfect life, mark - the standard being perfect love to God and man" (Anderson, Redemption Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 11).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. We can see a similiar conversation in the book of Matthew where the Lord Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt.19:17).

What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or it is not. And since the Lord Jesus would never say anything that is not true we can understand that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own works.

All have the ability to live a sinless life but none have the will. At some point in time all men decide to go their own way instead of the LORD's way.

 

[Brother Ducky]

In the following passage Paul says that the commandment was "ordained to life":

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death" (Ro.7:9-10).​

In what way can it be said that the law was "ordained to life"? Let us examine the following exchange between a lawyer and the Lord Jesus Christ:

"And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live" (Lk.10:25-28).​

Sir Robert Anderson says:

" 'What shall I do to inherit eternal life?' The question was framed by a professional theologian, to test the orthodoxy of the great Rabbi of Nazareth. For evidently it was rumoured that the new Teacher was telling the people of a short road to Heaven. And the answer given was clear - no other answer, indeed, is possible; for what a man inherits is his by right - eternal life is the reward and goal of a perfect life on earth. A perfect life, mark - the standard being perfect love to God and man" (Anderson, Redemption Truths [Grand Rapids: Kregel Publications, 1980], 11).​

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. We can see a similiar conversation in the book of Matthew where the Lord Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt.19:17).

What the Lord Jesus said there is either true or it is not. And since the Lord Jesus would never say anything that is not true we can understand that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to obtain eternal life by his own works.

All have the ability to live a sinless life but none have the will. At some point in time all men decide to go their own way instead of the LORD's way.

So the incarnation is not needed for God to have a people for himself??

 

[Nick M]

Let's back up a bit to see exactly how it is that by Adam's offense judgment came upon all men. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

No, this is why Paul says "therefore". That means in conclusion, the meaning of his plain words, the summary. And the summary is this;

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

 

[jamie]

While I would disagree with the idea of designed to sin, fallen humans sin. We do sin easily and well.

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:7-8)​

A mind that is not subject to God is going to sin, it has happened without fail.

Jesus didn't sin because he had God's Spirit from birth, but he was tempted.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

No, this is why Paul says "therefore". That means in conclusion, the meaning of his plain words, the summary. And the summary is this;

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

I have already explained what the sin which Adam committed that lead to all men dying and you were unable to prove that anything which I said is in error. Now let me ask you a simple question. Do people die spiritually as a result of their own sin or because the sin of Adam has been imputed to them? Let me give you a hint:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So the incarnation is not needed for God to have a people for himself??

I never said that. Instead I said that all men have the ability to remain sinless but not the will. At some point in time ALL MEN decide to go their own way instead of God's way. So since all sin and come short of the glory of God then if anyone is going to be saved they must be saved by faith through grace provided by the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

 

[jamie]

There is no doubt that the Lord Jesus made it abundantly clear that it is at least theoretically possible for a person to gain eternal life by keeping the law. We can see a similiar conversation in the book of Matthew where the Lord Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Mt.19:17).

Do you believe the Savior did not know the natural human mind cannot be subject to God's law?

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)​

The natural human mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ). (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/enmity/)​

 

[popsthebuilder]

Do you believe the Savior did not know the natural human mind cannot be subject to God's law?

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. (Romans 8:7)​

The natural human mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Enmity
deep-rooted hatred. "I will put enmity between thee and the woman, between thy seed and her seed" ( Genesis 3:15 ). The friendship of the world is "enmity with God" ( James 4:4 ; 1 John 2:15 1 John 2:16 ). The "carnal mind" is "enmity against God" ( Romans 8:7 ). By the abrogation of the Mosaic institutes the "enmity" between Jew and Gentile is removed. They are reconciled, are "made one" ( Ephesians 2:15 Ephesians 2:16 ). (http://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/enmity/)​

Romans: 2. 26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. -



The natural mind is not necessarily at enmity with GOD. It is greed that starts the divide.

peace

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[randomvim]

What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!

I'm sure many will try and post many opinions and scripture and etc, but cant we just need to study what origional sin is and look at our own lives?

O.S. is bent or corrupted nature that we have been born with due to heredity. This does not mean we are born guilty but pertain some likeness in us to lean towards unhealthy activities. This can be proven just by looking at humans.

Some commit to abusive behaviors. for example, playing videos games for majority of hours instead of studying or focus on a career. this indulgence is seen in this generation as well as generations prior.

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[jamie]

Romans: 2. 26. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27. And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28. For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29. But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Are you saying Jesus was not the only person without sin?

Or what do you mean by your quote?

 

[jamie]

The natural mind is not necessarily at enmity with GOD. It is greed that starts the divide.

Are there other mistakes you believe Paul made?