"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

jamie

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Yes. And...?

In post 122 somebody said, "The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father."

To which I replied, "A claim is made that his mother was human."

We know the holy Spirit fathered Jesus. The Catholics invented the doctrine that there is the Father, the Son, and the father of Jesus.

They refer to Jesus' father as a holy Spirit as if the the others were not also holy Spirit.

It's a strange doctrine they claim no one understands. Can you see why?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The only ones who die spiritually are those disembodied spirits (Who had suffered the first death, which is that of the bodies in which they were formed) who are refused entry into the generation of the Light beings and are cast back into the refining fires of physical life once more, (The second death, which is that of the mind/spirit) in the eternal cycle of rebirths, (Reincarnation)where those souls are stripped of their old spirits/minds, and new spirits/minds are formed in those souls, which are given new physical bodies, which bodies will be according to the heights that those minds had reached in their previous life.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
(Heb.9:27).​

Reincarnation is based on the idea that a person dies numerous times.

Spiritual death is the separation of the Spirit that is You, who had formed in the physical body before it died, from the eternal soul=life force of God.

Someone who is spiritually dead is without the "Spirit which is of God":

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"
(1 Cor.2:11-12).​
 

Derf

Well-known member
In post 122 somebody said, "The difference, of course, was that Jesus was not born of a human father."

To which I replied, "A claim is made that his mother was human."

We know the holy Spirit fathered Jesus. The Catholics invented the doctrine that there is the Father, the Son, and the father of Jesus.

They refer to Jesus' father as a holy Spirit as if the the others were not also holy Spirit.

It's a strange doctrine they claim no one understands. Can you see why?
Yes, I made that statement, and was having trouble understanding your point about Jesus' mother. I'm still not getting your point about His having a human mother.

But regarding the trinity, are you asking whether I can see why no one understands it, or can I see why they claim it. I think I can answer yes to both.

The doctrine of the trinity is well established in scripture, and as well as established as it is, it is equally hard to grasp.

I think you are mistaken about there being a separate Father God and Father of Jesus in catholic (little "c" intentional) doctrine.

Tell me this, if the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary to make her conceive Jesus (Luke 1:35 and Matt 1:18), and later Jesus sends the Holy Spirit (John 16:7), who is the greater, Jesus or the Holy Spirit?
 

jamie

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Yes, I made that statement, and was having trouble understanding your point about Jesus' mother. I'm still not getting your point about His having a human mother.

The claim was made that Jesus was not born of a human father as if this were some new thing. Actually, it has been known for several years that Jesus was conceived by the Father's power referred to as his Spirit.
 

jamie

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The doctrine of the trinity is well established in scripture, and as well as established as it is, it is equally hard to grasp.

There is nothing hard to grasp about the trinity theory which is based on the premise that the persons are equal and eternal. We know neither of those statements is true. Jesus claimed his Father is greater than he and the statement is made that the persons are eternal, but we know Jesus died.

Persons with eternal life don't die.

The trinity theory is fallacious and absurd.
 

Derf

Well-known member
The claim was made that Jesus was not born of a human father as if this were some new thing. Actually, it has been known for several years that Jesus was conceived by the Father's power referred to as his Spirit.

Several years?? Why didn't anyone tell me?

There is nothing hard to grasp about the trinity theory which is based on the premise that the persons are equal and eternal. We know neither of those statements is true. Jesus claimed his Father is greater than he and the statement is made that the persons are eternal, but we know Jesus died.

Persons with eternal life don't die.

The trinity theory is fallacious and absurd.

Persons with eternal life die all the time. John 3:16 says we will never die, if we believe in Jesus, yet 2000 years since Jesus said that, people are still dying. I guess Christianity is fallacious and absurd.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is the separation of the soul from the Spirit of God. Here the Lord Jesus speaks of Spiritual life which comes to those who are spiritually dead:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"
(Jn.6:63).​

I'm surprised you are willing to take Gen 2:17 so literally, since you wave off literal interpretations in so many other contexts. I guess it's good to use when it suits you.

But there are other ways to read Gen 2:17 literally. If the "day" is not a particular day, but an age. Some use similar logic to yours to say that because Adam didn't die right away, the 6 creation days must have been ages as well.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the spiritual death, but I'm considering the opposing view for a minute.

Here's my question:
If Adam died spiritually that day, and Adam died physically some 900 years later, did he continue to exist somewhere, like in "Abraham's bosom", in some form? And what was that form? I assume that since Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as "living", the same would be true of Adam. With dead spirits and dead bodies, what's left to be alive somewhere else?
 

S-word

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"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment"
(Heb.9:27).​

Reincarnation is based on the idea that a person dies numerous times.

Someone who is spiritually dead is without the "Spirit which is of God":

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"
(1 Cor.2:11-12).​

No one can be spiritually dead, until they are cast into the eternal fire where they suffer the second death, which is that of their disembodied mind/spirit.

Those who live righteous lives, in death, their minds/spirits will find rest in the Lord until the day of the final judgement. Those who do not find rest in Christ, will suffer terrible mental torment day and night without rest, until the day of the final judgement, when those souls will be cast into the refining fire where they suffer the second death.

1st Cor 15:35; But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.

All the spirits of man must stand before the Judgement seat, those who have been judged as righteous, shall receive their glorious heavenly bodies and enter into the generation of Light, the unrighteous spirits, will be cast back into the refining fires of Physical life once more, where they, the spirits that had developed within human bodies, will be wiped clean of their immortal souls, this is the second death, they, the spirits/mind, cease to exist and those empty souls will be given new bodies in which to create new spirits, but what sort of body will they receive?
 

S-word

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The great grandfather of the biblical Jesus was Yehoshua/Jesus III, who was the high priest in Jerusalem from 36 to 23 BC. The sonless Yehoshua, had three elderly daughters, Joanna, Elizabeth and Anna/Hanna, whose mother was ‘Phanul’ from the tribe of Asher.

Knowing that his Zadokian lineage would become extinct unless his daughters were placed with future husbands according to the Torah, he married them off to chosen husbands.

Joanna, was betrothed to Joachim from the non-royal genetic lineage of David. The second daughter of Yehoshua III, was Elizabeth. This was the Elizabeth, who, at a very advanced age was to become the mother of John the Baptist in 7 BC, some 16 years after the death of her father in 23 BC, and she was betrothed to a Levite priest by the name Zacharias of the priestly course of Abijah.

Hanna/Anna, the third daughter, was betrothed to Alexander Helios (Heli) a young Macedonian Jew, of the tribe of Judah through Nathan the Levite, who was the stepson of King David. Alexander Helios [Heli] is thought by some, to be the twin brother of Herod’s young Jewish wife Cleopatra, a Macedonian Jewess, perhaps the twin children of Queen Cleopatra and Mark Antony, who were adopted out when their parents committed suicide after losing their war against Caesar Augustus.

Alexander Helios=Heli, the biological grand-father of Jesus, according to the genealogy of Jesus as recorded in Luke, was a descendant of Nathan the prophet who was the biological son of Bathsheba and Uriah the Hittite.

Uriah became a member of the tribe of Levi by his marriage to Bathsheba the daughter of Ammiel, the son of Oded-Edom, who was a descendant of Moses from the house of Levi, by his second wife Jepunniah an Ethiopian woman, [See Numbers 12: 1; KJV] who was the widow of a man from the tribe of Judah, and the mother of Caleb, who, at the age of forty, became the adopted son of Moses, and Jepunniah was the daughter of Hobab the Kennite, one of the two fathers-in-law to Moses, [See Judges 4: 11.]*

The Talmud states, "Whoever brings up an orphan in his home is regarded...as though the child had been born to him." (Sanhedrin 119b).” In other words, the adopted child is to be treated as a child born to the father of that house,*which means, that Heli and his descendants, who were born from the genetic line of Nathan ‘the prophet,’ who was the adopted son of King David, were legitimate heirs to King David. But the prophesied Messiah had to come through the line of Solomon.

Heli and his descendants only became heirs to the throne of David, through Nathan the adopted son of King David, when Naria, a descendant of Nathan, married Tamar, a female descendant of King Solomon, who bore to Naria a son by the name “Salathiel.” After the death of Naria, Tamar was taken to wife by King Jeconiah, whose only son with Tamar, was Zedekiah who died prematurely in Childhood.

According to Torah law, Nathan the adopted son of King David and his descendants, were legitimate heirs of King David, but not in the ancestral line of the promised Messiah, who was to be born of the seed of Solomon, until Naria the descendant of Nathan coupled with Tamah the descendant of Solomon, to produce Salathiel the ancestor of Jesus, who has been made High Priest (From the tribe of Levi=Nathan) and King (From the tribe of Judah=Solomon) in the order of Melchizedek.

David Hughes the noted*Genealogist of the Ancient World Lineages, states that King Jeconiah’s only son, with*Queen Tamar,*‘Prince Zedekiah,’*died prematurely*in*childhood, and*in*586 BCE* King Zedekiah, the*last king of Israel, was taken prisoner and*his*sons*were*executed*in*front of his eyes, after which, his*eyes*were*gouged out,*and there*he remained blinded*in*exile*for the rest of his life and it*appeared*that the*entire royal lineage of King David*through*God’s chosen son, King Solomon,*had*been exterminated.*

With all*the*known direct lineages*of*male heirs*to the*lineage of King Solomon the son of King David*and Bathsheba*now*extinct,*Queen Tamar II*became*the*dynastic heiress preserving*not only the Lineage of King Solomon,*but*also became*the*inter-dynastic link, or the*vital crossover heiress merging*the*non-royal Nathan lineage*with the*royal lineages of King Solomon.*With*the*addition of Tamar representing*the*mainline descendants of King David, we now can*understand the linkage*between the*two prime royal*and*non-royal lineages*to the*ancestry of the Jewish Messiah*Yehoshua ben Yosef (Jesus son of Joseph the son of Alexander Helios a descendant of Nathan).*

Jesus carried in his genes the potent fusion of Davidian and Zadokian bloodlines.* He carried the potent bloodline of the royal mantle as a Priest-King of Israel and the messianic mantle as the Maschiach Yisra’el (Messiah of Israel) of the House of David.

Hebrew 5: 10; “And God declared him (Jesus) to be high priest according to the priestly order of Melchizedek.” Melchizedek held the titles of both King and high priest. Hebrew 5: 5; “In the same way, Christ did not take upon himself the honor of being high priest. Instead, God said to him, ‘You are my Son; TODAY I have become your Father.’”
 

jamie

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Persons with eternal life die all the time.

There is natural death and there is spiritual death, they are not the same.

But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
(Mark 12:26-27)​
 

S-word

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There is natural death and there is spiritual death, they are not the same.

But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
(Mark 12:26-27)​

The first law of thermodynamics is the same as the first law of conservation and that is, that energy can neither be created or destroyed. So it would seem that if energy cannot be created, then it always was, and If it can never be destroyed, it always will be. Therefore, according to this law, energy must be eternal, having neither beginning or end. Energy can be and is converted to matter. In fact, this material universe at the time of the Big Bang was pure energy which has been converted to matter only to be reconverted to its original form as energy during the phase of the Big Crunch. If you believe that a universe of mindless matter has produced beings with intrinsic ends, [in Kantian terminology, an end-in-itself] self- replication capabilities, and “coded chemistry”? Then you must accept that it is the eternal energy which has neither beginning or end, that has become this material universe and has developed a mind that is capable of comprehending mind.

This body that you see---it isn’t really me
It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed
For I am spirit—I am mind
And it’s the only place you’ll find
WHO I AM, until the day I’m finally born.
For I will not be free, until this body that you see
Has returned to the dust from whence it came
It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed
To continue on in life’s eternal game........By S-word.

Matter can be and is created.
All matter can be and is reconverted to the energy from which it was created.
Flesh and blood does not and cannot inherit eternity.
 

jamie

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God is Spirit and his dimension is the primary dimension. Matter and energy were created for this physical dimension in which we currently live.

In a couple of millennial days this current physical dimension will be replaced with a new and improved model.

You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They will perish, but You remain, and they will all grow old like a garment, like a cloak You will fold them up and they will be changed. But You are the same and Your years will not fail. (Hebrews 1:10-12)​
 

Nick M

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So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!

Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Christians cannot even agree on basic doctrinal matters.

Yes they do. You going around telling lies and saying you are Christian doesn't mean you are. You and the other phonies exist and post for the purpose of spreading deceit. You are outside the faith, and so are most here.
 

Prizebeatz1

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"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

What evidence can anyone give that demonstrates that the sin of Adam and the result of that sin as well as the guilt of that sin passed to all of his descendants?

First let us look at the commandment that Adam violated:

"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"
(Gen.2:16-17).​

Adam did not die "physically" on the day when he ate of that tree so the death which he suffered on that day was "spiritual" death.

So if anyone has evidence that supports the idea of Original Sin then let's hear it.

Thanks!

I think original sin is generally misunderstood. The real original sin is biting the forbidden fruit of judgment. This is the downfall of mankind...not knowing when to quit judging. Here is the moral to the story but it's often overlooked.

A newborn baby is not sinful because it has not done anything wrong. Yes we're born in sin but that's not the whole truth. The other half is that we're born pure in innocence but we forget about that innocence as we grow older and then treat it as if never existed in the first place. That sense of innocence we had in childhood is gone when we become adults.

The magic of our childhood represents the garden of Eden. Losing touch with the child-like part of us is caused by identifying with the personality. We are conditioned by the civilization/domestication process and to become honorable citizens and lose touch with our innocence. We turn our backs on that innocence or the Garden because we don't trust our needs will be met so we develop something that we think will meet our needs which is the personality. The temptation to do this is enormous and unconscious.

We succumb to the peer pressure of the system of the collective identity. We judge everything including ourselves to fit the group conscious. There is self-rejection, condemnation and hatred when we fail to live up to the standards. We feel a sense of loss and feel worthless. The process is gradual, seamless, almost undetectable.

But yes original sin has truth to it as evidenced in our behavior but our original innocence has the power to overcome it.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 
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Derf

Well-known member
There is natural death and there is spiritual death, they are not the same.
I guess we've made it full circle, as this was the starting premise.
But concerning the dead, that they rise, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the burning bush passage, how God spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?

He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living. You are therefore greatly mistaken.”
(Mark 12:26-27)​
Yes, I referred to that verse in my response to Jerry, here.

I'll ask you the same question(s):
If Adam died spiritually that day, and Adam died physically some 900 years later, did he continue to exist somewhere, like in "Abraham's bosom", in some form? And what was that form? I assume that since Jesus spoke of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as "living", the same would be true of Adam. With dead spirits and dead bodies, what's left to be alive somewhere else?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned—

18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

Let's back up a bit to see exactly how it is that by Adam's offense judgment came upon all men. Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned"
(Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law"
(Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yes we're born in sin but that's not the whole truth.

No one is a sinner until he sins. And until someone knows the difference between what is good or bad then to him it is not a sin:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

It is obvious that infants do not know the difference between what is good or bad so they have not sinned and are not born in sin.
 

jamie

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If Adam died spiritually that day, and Adam died physically some 900 years later, did he continue to exist somewhere, like in "Abraham's bosom", in some form?

All of the heirs with Christ are Abraham's seed. (Galatians 3:29)
 
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