"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
can children sin?

at what age does their sinful behavior count?

Unless a child knows what they are doing is wrong then it is not a sin:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

As long as a young child remains in a state of innocence he does not die spiritually. And by what the Lord Jesus said about little children proves that He did not think that little children are spiritually dead:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'"
(Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord thought that little children were dead spiritually but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If the idea of Original Sin is correct then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that the Lord Jesus was teaching that unless we become dead spiritually then we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven! That is patently ridiculous and common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus did not believe that infants come into this world under the wrath and curse of God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Well, rather than oppose you confrontationally, I'm seeking to discuss it in a meaningful way.

The most "meaningful" way to discuss this subject is to examine what the Scriptures actually say about this subject. Let us look at this verse which speaks of "death":

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away"
(2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death.

Therefore, we can understand that men who sin against the moral law die spiritually as a result of their own sin. And in order to die spiritually a man must first be alive spiritually. that can only mean that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

Again, imho, God would be able to walk with man and we wouldn't all have been banned from the Tree of life and the Garden, if a child were born without sin. Wouldn't the answer to sin, not be the Lord Jesus Christ, but simply taking the children from Adam and Eve and putting them in the garden? Wouldn't that have fixed the problem? If you are right, wouldn't it still?

By the time when they had a child they had already sinned and mankind's access to the Tree of Life had already been denied.

I believe it was a way of teaching all mankind that we all need a Savior, but there, my whole systematic theology points to man born infected totally by sin.

The Lord Jesus came to save us from the penalty of our own sins.
 

Lon

Well-known member
The most "meaningful" way to discuss this subject is to examine what the Scriptures actually say about this subject. Let us look at this verse which speaks of "death":

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away"
(2 Cor.3:6-7).​

Here the Apostle Paul is contrasting the New Testament with the Ten Commandments (written and engraved in stones). In regard to the New Testament he says that "the spirit giveth life" so this is obviously referring to "spiritual life."

We are told to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" (1 Cor.2:13) so in order to maintain a logical consistency we must understand that the "ministration of death" refers to "spiritual" death.

Therefore, we can understand that men who sin against the moral law die spiritually as a result of their own sin. And in order to die spiritually a man must first be alive spiritually. that can only mean that no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.



By the time when they had a child they had already sinned and mankind's access to the Tree of Life had already been denied.



The Lord Jesus came to save us from the penalty of our own sins.

Yet children and infants die. Could such be possible if they were sinless? It doesn't seem likely, and this is considering these scriptures. I don't believe they can but support some of your rationale but it seems to me Romans 3:23 etc. are encompassing scriptures that I could never acquiesce this theology. I think it'd be easier to convince a Catholic of it than a Protestant. As such, you've held it for a long time and so are as calcified as perhaps we. At least, without a hard debate, we know where each other are coming from. I'd like to see it lifted up on TOL Battle Royale with Enyart one day. Perhaps you are up for that challenge. -Lon
 

S-word

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For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit. (1 Peter 3:18)​

So Christ was put to death but then he was resurrected (made alive) by the Spirit.

How was Christ made alive? BY the Spirit.

Then what?

Then he preached to some imprisoned spirit beings.

When were they imprisoned?

In the days of Noah.

Is that when he preached to them?

No, he died and was resurrected and then preached to the disobedient spirit beings.

Dead men are dead, they don't preach.

Jesus was only dead in the flesh for three days ad three night, during which time, before the Lord resurrected the body of his servant, His living spirit descended and preached to the spirits of the sons of God, who were imprisoned, because the had defiled themselves with the daughters of man

That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.

Perhaps Moses, who was the adopted son of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets. Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt and removed the yeast and gave to the Israelites the unleavened loaf that came down from God. --------- In the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. Now where do you suppose Moses received this teaching, the only source that I can find is written here.
“And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what*Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.
*
And Azael taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth (Tubal-cain, from a previous age of man had been an instructor*of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to it's end)*and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

The Lord then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original abode and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men.
*
They were to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke*3: 23-38)*but Azazel was punished separate from the others, He was taken out into the wilderness to a place called 'Dudael,' where he was cast into a deep pit and covered with rough and jagged stone, and all sin was to be ascribed to him.*
 

chair

Well-known member
"Original Sin" is a sick concept. It goes against any idea of justice, and leaves you with an unjust God.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Yet children and infants die. Could such be possible if they were sinless? It doesn't seem likely, and this is considering these scriptures.

Due to Adam's sin the whole creation has been decaying and that explains why infants die physically--not because spiritual death has been imputed to them.

"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Ro.8:20-22).​

At least, without a hard debate, we know where each other are coming from. I'd like to see it lifted up on TOL Battle Royale with Enyart one day. Perhaps you are up for that challenge.

I would love it. Do you think that Enyart would be up to it?
 

Lon

Well-known member
Due to Adam's sin the whole creation has been decaying and that explains why infants die physically--not because spiritual death has been imputed to them.
"For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Ro.8:20-22).​



I would love it. Do you think that Enyart would be up to it?

Not sure. Your view is pelagianism. I'm sure AMR told you that. In the Catholic church, the closest they get is semi-pelagian. Such a debate would echo back to the first centuries of the church, much like the Arian Trinitarian debate. You are literally the first Pelagian I have ever met. I did mention this to Knight as a possible debate topic. Maybe even on Bob Enyart Live. :idunno: I'd like to hear or read this debate, especially as a few of you seem to be here on TOL. -Lon
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Yet children and infants die. Could such be possible if they were sinless? It doesn't seem likely, and this is considering these scriptures. I don't believe they can but support some of your rationale but it seems to me Romans 3:23 etc. are encompassing scriptures that I could never acquiesce this theology. I think it'd be easier to convince a Catholic of it than a Protestant. As such, you've held it for a long time and so are as calcified as perhaps we. At least, without a hard debate, we know where each other are coming from. I'd like to see it lifted up on TOL Battle Royale with Enyart one day. Perhaps you are up for that challenge. -Lon
What? Death is part of life. To conflate eternal life or death with the physical body and/ or physical mind even, seems flawed. Children are blessed in their passing away; being without sin they surely return home to GOD

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popsthebuilder

New member
Jesus was only dead in the flesh for three days ad three night, during which time, before the Lord resurrected the body of his servant, His living spirit descended and preached to the spirits of the sons of God, who were imprisoned, because the had defiled themselves with the daughters of man

That is why the Good News was preached also to the dead, to those who had been judged in their physical existence as everyone is judged; it was preached to them so that in their spiritual existence they may live as God lives.

Crucifixion was a rite in the mysteries of many countries and especially those of Egypt, See ‘The Secret Doctrines,’ vol. 11, p. 558. The initiated adept, who had successfully passed all the trials, was tied to a cross deep inside a Temple Crypt or cave, he was then drugged and plunged into a deep sleep in which state, in the darkness of the bowels of the earth, he remained for three days and three nights, during which time his spirit=mind, is said to have descended into hades to communicate with the gods.

Perhaps Moses, who was the adopted son of Pharaoh and who would have been afforded the best education in the country may have been initiated into the circle of the guardians of the sacred secrets. Moses took the bread or the sacred teachings of Egypt and removed the yeast and gave to the Israelites the unleavened loaf that came down from God. --------- In the religious regulations established by Moses, Aaron would place his hand upon the head of a scapegoat, symbolically transferring the sins of Israel to the goat, which was then sent out into the wilderness to Azazel. Now where do you suppose Moses received this teaching, the only source that I can find is written here.
“And Michael said to the heavenly Lord, "Seest what*Azazel hath done, who hath taught all unrighteousness on earth and has revealed the eternal secrets which were preserved in heaven, which men were striving to learn. And Semjaza, to whom you have given authority to bear rule over his associates (The other 199 sons of God) and they have gone to the daughters of men upon the earth and have slept with them and revealed to them all kinds of sin etc.
*
And Azael taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth (Tubal-cain, from a previous age of man had been an instructor*of every artificer in brass and iron, which knowledge was stored in heaven when that age came to it's end)*and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tintures etc.

The Lord then passed judgment on the angels who had forsaken their own original abode and came down and defiled themselves with the daughters of men.
*
They were to be bound and cast into the valley of the earth until seventy generations had passed, (Jesus was seventy generations from Enoch, see Luke*3: 23-38)*but Azazel was punished separate from the others, He was taken out into the wilderness to a place called 'Dudael,' where he was cast into a deep pit and covered with rough and jagged stone, and all sin was to be ascribed to him.*
Book of Enoch?

Good stuff

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Not sure. Your view is pelagianism. ...You are literally the first Pelagian I have ever met.
Indeed,

According to Jerry, we are all “born in sin” (whatever that means)… but not guilty. We suffer, for some reason, because of Adam’s sin, but we’re not guilty of it. So God, for some unknown reason, has cursed us even though we bear no guilt.

Since God does not impute the guilt of our federal head Adam to us, how does He impute Christ’s righteousness to us? See, if you deny that Adam’s guilt is our guilt, you can never acknowledge that Christ’s righteousness is ours by faith.

The Bible however states it like this, “through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men” and “through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners” (not potential sinners) Elsewhere Paul states: “In Adam, all die…” See, the reason everyone dies is because of our guilt in Adam! If we’re not guilty of Adam’s sin, then we neither need a Savior when we’re born, nor should we die.

AMR
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Unless a child knows what they are doing is wrong then it is not a sin:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin"
(Jas.4:17).​

As long as a young child remains in a state of innocence he does not die spiritually. And by what the Lord Jesus said about little children proves that He did not think that little children are spiritually dead:

"Then people brought little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked them. Jesus said, 'Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these'"
(Mt.19:13-14).​

Are we to believe that the Lord thought that little children were dead spiritually but yet He would say that "the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"? Of course not!

At another place we see the Lord Jesus speaking about children and here the same truth can be seen:

"At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven" (Mt.18:1-4).​

If the idea of Original Sin is correct then we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that the Lord Jesus was teaching that unless we become dead spiritually then we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven! That is patently ridiculous and common sense dictates that the Lord Jesus did not believe that infants come into this world under the wrath and curse of God.

again, don't want to sidetrack the main theme here too much, but doesn't Jer 31:33-34 apply?
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Yet children and infants die. Could such be possible if they were sinless?

There is natural death and and there is spiritual death, just like there is natural law and there is spiritual law. An example of natural law would be gravity, if you break it then it can break you.

According to Paul there is also spiritual law. Transgressing spiritual law can result in spiritual death.

Jesus did not die as a remedy to natural death, he died to provide a remedy to spiritual death.

A young child can suffer natural death, but not spiritual death until they reach an age of accountability.

Natural death is just a part of life.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
at what point does God put his Law in our minds and write it on our hearts?

conception?

birth?

later?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
at what point does God put his Law in our minds and write it on our hearts?

The verse from the book of Jeremiah is in regard to what will happen after the LORD gathers the children of Israel back to the land (Ez.36:24-26).

That is a "type" which illustrates what happens to "individuals" who are spiritually dead when they believe the good news of Christ.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Romans 2:15 also refers to "the law written in their hearts"

does the child have this law written in its heart?
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Romans 2:15 also refers to "the law written in their hearts"

does the child have this law written in its heart?

Romans 2:15 is speaking of the law which is written in man's heart of which the "conscience" bears witness. I am not sure at what age a child gains the knowledge of the law written in their hearts but I know in my case that around the age of five I understood that I had sinned by having that knowledge. A verse earlier Paul speaks of the Gentiles doing by "nature" the things contained in the law.

That seems to contradict the teaching of the Calvinists who say that in a man's natural state he is made opposite to all good and is wholly inclined to all evil:

"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).​
 

Lon

Well-known member
What? Death is part of life. To conflate eternal life or death with the physical body and/ or physical mind even, seems flawed. Children are blessed in their passing away; being without sin they surely return home to GOD

It isn't natural, I don't believe. Scientists cannot determine what switch in our physical make-up causes death. They just realize we are affected by harsh environment factors. The scripture tells us that man's days were limited to 120 years. It tells us in Romans 8:20 that all creation is placed under the curse, all in need of redemption. I tend to think holistically, the curse meant a physical death. Adam and Eve were cut off from God AND they received an expiration date. They literally began the death process imho, both spiritually and physically. 1 Corinthians 15:26 Genesis 6:3 (some think Genesis 3 makes better contextual sense that it would be 120 years before the rain fell, but it is of important note that few men lived past 120 years after Genesis) Job 14:5 Romans 8:20
 

popsthebuilder

New member
Romans 2:15 also refers to "the law written in their hearts"

does the child have this law written in its heart?
A young child and babies run on dependence on guardian and instinct. One must have the capacity to know right from wrong through their conscience. This happens at different ages for some and not at all for others due to culture variances and societal norms nearly wholly blocking off the conscience from active decision making.

child

CH?ld/

noun

a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.

synonyms:youngster,*little one,*boy,*girl;

baby,*newborn,*infant,*toddler;

cherub,*angel;*

schoolboy,schoolgirl;*

minor,*junior,*preteen;

son,*daughter,*descendant;

informalkid,*kiddie,*tot,*tyke,young ’un,*lad,*rug rat,*ankle-biter;

derogatorybrat,*guttersnipe,urchin,*gamin,*gamine;

literarybabe,*babe in arms;

offspring,*progeny,*issue,*brood,descendants

"a well-behaved child"

a son or daughter of any age.

an immature or irresponsible person.

"she's such a child!"

A child by definition is not responsible for self and dependent on others.

I would think that a maturity is needed to know and understand the law written on the heart. That isn't to say that the conscience isn't ever present from conception.

Only opinion though I suppose.

peace

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