"Original Sin"--Fact or Fiction?

[popsthebuilder]

Noah was a drunk who went and cursed Canaan for generations.
Abraham had sex with another woman, who gave birth to Islam.

They not only sinned, but their sin still affects the world today [emoji33]:

Job and Enoch?

And the others where indeed upright after having repented.

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[Crucible]

Job and Enoch?

And the others where indeed upright after having repented.

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'Upright' doesn't mean 'perfect', and the fact that they had to repent in the first place means that they were sinners before.
Original Sin deal exactly with the fact that everybody will fall short because they are intrinsically disordered without divine aid.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

A mere fifteen minutes or so following my very detailed post, you respond with but the same content you have posted time and again. [FONT=&]I suspect you only made the OP as but a means to repeat what you have said elsewhere.[/FONT]

As usual you want to change the subject. Why do you refuse to address the points which I made?

Is it because your little Calvinistic handbook has no answer for you?

I searched the links you gave me and guess what? None of them had answers to the points about spiritual death which I brought up.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Case closed.

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:22).​

When we look at the context we can that the "death" and "life" in view is in regard to "physical" death and life because here Paul is speaking about the resuurection of the body:

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive" (1 Cor.15:21-22).​

In what way was Adam responsible for bringing "physical" death to mankind? Both he and Eve were created with mortal bodies and as long as they continued to eat of the Tree of Life they would not die physcially. But once they were expelled from the Garden of Eden no one was able to partake of that Tree which was designed to keep their mortal bodies alive:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life" (Gen.3:22-24).​

Since then it has been man's destiny to die physically:

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb.9:27).​

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Yes, death passed upon all men BECAUSE ALL HAVE SINNED.

Not because every man dies spiritually as a result of Adam's sin.

 

[Evil.Eye.<(I)>]

A mere fifteen minutes or so following my very detailed post, you respond with but the same content you have posted time and again. [FONT=&]I suspect you only made the OP as but a means to repeat what you have said elsewhere.[/FONT]

For example, my response included a detailed extract from a respected theological dictionary on the matter of imputation that speaks quite directly to your claims. Yet you remain oblivious to it or are deceitfully ignoring it. When you take the time to digest my response and can offer up observations directly dealing with the points made in my response, things would move along fruitfully.

AMR

Why is it that Jerry's posts use the indent function to exalt scripture and regularly wrap around the scripture to magnify it... While your posts are continually referring to extra biblical reference and your theological prowess?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The fact that nobody has been able to live without committing a sin is a pretty demonstrated evidence, hombre...

Man has a free will and sooner or later all men go their own way instead of God's way. And they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[popsthebuilder]

'Upright' doesn't mean 'perfect', and the fact that they had to repent in the first place means that they were sinners before.
Original Sin deal exactly with the fact that everybody will fall short because they are intrinsically disordered without divine aid.

You didn't answer the question. What of Elisha and John the Baptiser? Aaron?

Seems to me that both nature's are within each of us as potentialities and we are free to wallow in sin until that time when GOD sees fit to guide us towards the truth, at which time sin becomes knowing sin and freedom is that freedom to knowingly blaspheme the Holy Spirit or to wholly abide and be faithful and devout towards the percievable will of GOD.

peace

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[Epoisses]

There we read that men die as a result of their own sins and not as result of Adam's sin.

Men sin because they are born sinners, noob!

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:18,19

 

[Epoisses]

Man has a free will and sooner or later all men go their own way instead of God's way. And they have no one to blame but themselves.

Free will is an illusion of the Arminian Dispy! The bible commands us to believe in Christ not choose him.

So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy - Rom. 9:16

John Calvin and John Darby - the two tyrants of Protestant Christianity.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Men sin because they are born sinners, noob!

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. Rom. 5:18,19

You prove that you are good at name calling but when it comes to understanding the Scriptures you are as incompetent as anyone on this forum.

Let us look first at Romans 5:12:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).​

From this we can understand the following: (1) Sin entered the world when Adam sinned and that sin brought about spiritual death. (2) Adam's sin was somehow responsible for bringing spiritual death to all men. (3) This death came to all men because all have sinned.

What this verse does not tell us is exactly "how" Adam was responsible for bring death to all men. However, the verse which follows was written in order to explain how that came about:

"...even as by one man sin entered into the world, and by sin death; and thus death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: for until law sin was in the world; but sin is not put to account when there is no law" (Ro.5:12-13).​

These verses are speaking of "law" in a "universal" sense because the "deaths" being considered are also "universal" in nature: "death passed to all men." The only universal law that has been in effect since Adam is the law which is written in the heart of all men, the same law of which the "conscience" bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).​

When Adam ate of the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" he had the knowledge of the law written in his heart and his "conscience" bore witness to that law. His very nature had changed. The Lord said: "Behold,the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" (Gen.3:22). Man now had a "conscience" of the law written in his heart.

All of Adam's descendants would thereafter be born in Adam's likeness and image, also having a "conscience", or an inborn knowledge of God's law:

"And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth" (Gen.5:3).​

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

If Adam would have obeyed the Lord then he would have remained in a state of "innocence" and "law" would not have come upon his descendants: "when there is no law, sin is not imputed." This principle is illustrated in the following verse:

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).​

God will not impute sin into a person's account unless that person first knows the difference between what is good and what is not.

Therefore we can understand that if sin is not imputed into anyone's account then there would be no spiritual death.

Of course you will do your best to pervert the Scriptures in order to make them fit your preconceived ideas. And then you will insult anyone who refuses to believe the fairy tales you will invent!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I can see that those who believe in the idea of "Original Sin" have little intention of defending that idea.

I wonder why that is?

 

[Danoh]

I can see that those who believe in the idea of "Original Sin" have little intention of defending that idea.

I wonder why that is?

No offense intended, Jer, but there really is no point in attempting to with you; your mind is made up.

It is what it is.

The best towards you, nonetheless, bro.

 

[glorydaz]

I can see that those who believe in the idea of "Original Sin" have little intention of defending that idea.

I wonder why that is?

Well, I've always agreed with you on this one, Jerry. Our "human nature" makes us susceptible to sin because we live in the flesh and reside in a world of sin. Sin came "into the world" when Adam sinned, it did not change the nature of man. Adam was created with the same human nature we have....he sinned and so do we.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Claiming "Gotcha!" When One Has Been Gotten...sigh

Claiming "Gotcha!" When One Has Been Gotten...sigh

I can see that those who believe in the idea of "Original Sin" have little intention of defending that idea.

I wonder why that is?

All evidence to the contrary, nothwithstanding, of course:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...in-quot-Fact-or-Fiction&p=4939958#post4939958

That you do not like the answer, especially in the glaring absence of any attempt by you to actually interact with its content, in no way discounts the plain fact that you have been answered. I wonder why that is? :AMR:

AMR

 

[Jerry Shugart]

All evidence to the contrary, nothwithstanding, of course:

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...in-quot-Fact-or-Fiction&p=4939958#post4939958

That you do not like the answer, especially in the glaring absence of any attempt by you to actually interact with its content, in no way discounts the plain fact that you have been answered. I wonder why that is?

Here is what you said in that post:

Spiritual death is the state of spiritual alienation from God. As a result of Adam’s sin, all living people are born spiritually dead (with the exception of the Lord Jesus Christ).

I have already demonstrated that a person does not emerge from the womb spiritually dead:

A person dies spiritually as a result of his own sin:

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away" (2 Cor.3:6-7).​

You said that the death in this passage refers to "spiritual" death:

In 2 Cor 3:6-7 the law is called the ministry of death, for when men are instructed as to their duty, and hear it declared, that all who do not render satisfaction to the justice of God are cursed, (Deuteronomy 27:26) they are convicted, as under sentence of sin and death. Again in view here is the spiritual, physical, and judicial death of man.

Therefore, 2 Corinthians 3:6-7 is saying that when men sin against the law they die spiritually. And in order to die spiritually a person must first be alive spiritually. That means no one emerges from the womb spiritually dead.

Why didn't you even attempt to deal with these facts?

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

There we read that men die as a result of their own sins and not as result of Adam's sin.

OT law prohibited anyone to die for someone else's sin.

But scripture says that we do die because of the sin of Adam and Eve. It is our own sin yes, but also because we inherit the sin from our ancestors sin and disobedience against God.
David lamented “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” - Psalm 51.
We all inherit sin from Adam and Eve.
Paul tells us he was in his “sinful nature a slave to the law of sin” - Romans 7:25.
"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23
The Bible says that each of us will die because of the sin we inherit, which is our own sin because we are sinful by nature. sinful is our flesh.
1 Corinthians 15:22 - "Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life."
So we do die because of the sin of someone else - Adam. But we can inherit eternal life because of the blood of the only sinless one, the perfect lamb of God, Christ Jesus.
"He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him" - 2 Corinthians 5:21

 

[Nang]

I can see that those who believe in the idea of "Original Sin" have little intention of defending that idea.

I wonder why that is?

Well, it might be because defending truth from the disbelief of certain people, can be quite tiring and futile.

To deny the reality of original sin is to deny that all of creation experiences only a temporary life, and is accursed with certain death.

Adam sinned. Adam died. The wages of sin is death. Romans 6:23

There is no thing or no soul, that has ever lived, that has escaped the Godly curse of death that Adam caused. Romans 5:12 (Enoch and Elijah excepted, who God chose to demonstrate His power over death.)

To argue the total depravity of man, is to deny not only reality, but the very testimony and word of God.

And ultimately, to deny the original sin that caused death in all living things, is to deny the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, for it is denial of the very need and purpose of His vicarious death and resurrection that overcame this historical tragedy.

IMO, anyone who does not defend this biblical truth and argue against this silly and sorry lie you attempt to sell, is not worth their salt in the eyes of God Almighty!

 

[Tnkrbl123!]

So Adam was responsible for death coming unto all men because he was responsible for bringing "law" unto all men. When all men after Adam sinned against the law written in their hearts they died spiritually--"and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

First of all, well done, your arguments and explanations are always very well put together and flow logically and make sense (which we can all attest doesn't always happen on here lol). I will just say that I can see your point. But when I read the Genesis account I do see that there is "law" before Adam and Eve sinned. It was the same law just put in a simpler way. It was the "law" of obedience to God, the first law and first commandment. Where God spoke to Adam in the garden - "The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to till it and keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” - Genesis 2:15-17

 

[Lon]

Christians cannot even agree on basic doctrinal matters. If your deity loves you why would it not be clearer so that everyone could agree and life would be so much easier.

Essential vs. nonessential doctrines. I think this one important, but you have to pay attention Jdog. Shoot, sports doesn't even have the kind of allegiance you'd suggest. It ain't all bad ya know

(some Christians don't understand that systematic theology and Christianity aren't the same and often times make disagreement a bigger deal, in ignorance, than it generally actually is).

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Moving Goal Posts and Claiming Victory is not a Discussion - It is a Monologue

Moving Goal Posts and Claiming Victory is not a Discussion - It is a Monologue

Here is what you said in that post:

What I have stated was backed up by plenty of discussion and Scriptural references, as well as actual definitions dealing with the issue of imputation.

You wave off all of this and merely restate your past statements with no attention paid to what I have presented in defense of that statement of mine you have quoted. Lifting that statement from all its context will not do, Jerry. Deal with all the reasons I provided as to why I have made that statement, especially the parallels drawn by Paul in Romans 5. Do not simply move to other verses and think you have met some burden in your rejoinder. Reconcile Scripture with Scripture. What I have provided are arguments from Scripture and until you can show that these passages do not teach what I claim they teach, no progress will be made on the matter.

For example, start with responding to what is contained below (which was part of my earlier response):

Spoiler

IMPUTATION

A forensic term that denotes the reckoning or placing to a person’s account the merit or guilt that belongs to him on the basis of his personal performance or of that of his federal head. While impute is used in Scripture to express the idea of receiving the just reward of our deeds (Lev. 7:18; 17:4; 2 Sam. 19:19), imputation as a theological term normally carries one of two meanings:

Imputation of Adam’s Sin

First, it describes the transmission of the guilt of Adam’s first sin to his descendants. It is imputed, or reckoned, to them; i.e., it is laid to their account. Paul’s statement is unambiguous: “By one man’s disobedience many were made [constituted] sinners” (Rom. 5:19). Some Reformed theologians ground the imputation of Adam’s sin in the real involvement of all his posterity in his sin, because of the specific unity of the race in him. Shedd strongly advocates this view in his Dogmatic Theology. Others—e.g., Charles and A. A. Hodge, and Louis Berkhof—refer all to the federal headship of Adam. The Westminster Standards emphasize that Adam is both the federal head and the root of all his posterity. Both parties accept that this is so. Thus, the dispute is not whether Adam’s federal headship is the ground of the imputation of his first sin to us, but whether that federal headship rests solely on a divine constitution—i.e., because God appointed it—or on the fact that God made him the actual root of the race and gave the race a real specific unity in him.

The theory of mediate imputation has never gained acceptance in orthodox expressions of the Reformed Faith. It is subversive to the entire concept of the imputation of Adam’s sin upon which Paul grounds his exposition of justification by virtue of union with Christ our righteousness (Rom. 5:12–19; 1 Cor. 15:22).

Paul’s statement of the imputation of Adam’s sin to his posterity is stark: “By [through] one man sin entered into the world, and death by [through] sin; so death passed upon all men, for all have sinned” (Rom. 5:12). In the AV the clause “for all have sinned” may give the impression that Paul’s argument is that all die like Adam because all, like him, have sinned. But this is not the case. His statement is, “Death passed upon all humanity inasmuch as all sinned.” He teaches that all participated in Adam’s sin and that both the guilt and the penalty of that sin were transmitted to them. However we explain the mode of that participation—whether on purely federal or on traducianist-federal grounds—the fact of it stands as a fundamental of the Christian revelation. As the Shorter Catechism says, “The covenant [of works] being made with Adam, not only for himself, but for his posterity, all mankind, descending from him by ordinary generation, sinned in him, and fell with him, in his first transgression” (Question 16, emphasis added.)

Imputation of our Sin to Christ and of His Righteousness to Us

Second, imputation has a second major use in Scripture. It describes the act of God in visiting the guilt of believers on Christ and of conferring the righteousness of Christ upon believers. In this sense

“imputation is an act of God as sovereign judge, at once judicial and sovereign, whereby He—(1). Makes the guilt, legal responsibility of our sins, really Christ’s, and punishes them in Him, Isa. 53:6; John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; and (2). Makes the merit, legal rights of Christ’s righteousness, ours, and then treats us as persons legally invested with all those rights, Rom. 4:6; 10:4; 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Cor. 5:21; Phil. 3:9. As Christ is not made a sinner by the imputation to Him of our sins, so we are not made holy by the imputation to us of His righteousness. The transfer is only of guilt from us to Him, and of merit from Him to us. He justly suffered the punishment due to our sins, and we justly receive the rewards due to His righteousness, 1 John 1:8, 9”
(A. A. Hodge, Outlines of Theology, chap. 30, Q. 15).

The fact of this imputation is inescapable: “By the obedience of one [Christ] shall many be made righteous” (Rom. 5:19). The ground of it is the real, vital, personal, spiritual and federal union of Christ with His people. It is indispensable to the biblical doctrine of justification. Without it, we fail to do justice to Paul’s teaching, and we cannot lead believers into the comfort that the gospel holds out to them. That comfort is of a perfect legal release from guilt and of a perfect legal righteousness that establishes a secure standing before God and His law on the basis of a perfect obedience outside of their own subjective experience.

The double imputation of our sin to Christ and of His righteousness to us is clearly laid down in 2 Cor. 5:21: “He hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” Hugh Martin’s paraphrase catches the meaning precisely: “God made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us, who knew no righteousness, that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” That Paul means us to understand a judicial act of imputation is clear. God did not make Christ personally a sinner. The reference is not to Christ’s subjective experience. He was as personally sinless and impeccable when He was bearing our sins on the cross as He had ever been. What Paul is describing is God’s act of reckoning our sin to Christ so as to make Him legally liable for it and all its consequences. Similarly, while believers are not by any means righteous in their subjective experience, God reckons to them the full merit of Christ’s obedience in life and death (Rom. 5:18, 19). That righteousness, not any attained virtue, is the ground of a believer’s acceptance with God.

Source: Cairns, A. (2002). Dictionary of Theological Terms (pp. 225–226). Belfast; Greenville, SC: Ambassador Emerald International.

What is it about the above treatment of imputation that you would disagree? Explain in detail why the author of this entry is wrong according to your views. Take the above paragraph by paragraph, outlining your arguments pro or con. This is what is meant by "discussion". All you have been doing to date is moving goal posts and ignoring the substance of responses you have been given, then claiming victory. Er, no.

AMR