Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses
- Thread starter Christine
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Everyone has heard of Disneyland. Is this absolutely true?
Nothing is impossible for God. He can do anything logically doable. Somethings are not logically doable (an uncreated being making Himself to cease to exist or to be created from all eternity) and are excluded from 'nothing'. Your wooden literalism is missing an obvious logical point about reality. Definitions cannot be subjective and arbitrary.The context of the quote is not a proof text for God doing absurd things like making square circles or the color black being red at the same time. A man cannot be a pig genetically at the same instant in time and space. This is not a limitation on God, but a false, absurd dilemma. Can God make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it? This is a stupid question and not a challenge to a proper understanding of God.
Fictional characters are concepts, and exist as such, but they are not real, and therefore they do not exist. The soul, heaven, and such things are not concepts. They are real.
God is real. He is, therefore, limited to the confines of reality. It hardly makes sense to regard such as a meaningful limitation in the course of normal discussion because all this is really saying is that God is not fantasy. But if you are pushing to get one of us to say God is limited in some way, there you go, I've said it, and I'll say it again...
God is limited to the confines of reality. If He were not, He would not be real, by definition.
Resting in Him,
Clete
The Open view also postulates that God is a risk taker. By creating other free moral agents, He has VOLUNTARILY (not inherently before creation) 'limited' Himself. The incarnation is a limitation. Working through prayer is a self-imposed limitation (though not binding). Having humans instead of angels preach the Gospel is limiting. Creating free moral agents means that some of the future is open, uncertain, and unknowable. This is a new limitation because of the type of creation God CHOSE to make. Any limitations on God are a result of His sovereign willingness to have them. He is not a control freak. He created beings capable of love, so it was inherent that evil would be a POSSIBILITY, but not a certainty. God's great happiness and holy universe was breached when Lucifer and Adam fell.
This may not fit the Greek ideal of the "Unmoved Mover". Pinnock wrote a book on the "Most Moved Mover". God is not static and impersonal. He is dynamic, creative, and personal. Creation introduced new factors that changed reality. Hitler and the killing of Jews were not ordained by God. Having children brings limits to the individual.
These limitations are in the wisdom and control of God. They do not take away from His essential sovereignty and greatness.
This may not fit the Greek ideal of the "Unmoved Mover". Pinnock wrote a book on the "Most Moved Mover". God is not static and impersonal. He is dynamic, creative, and personal. Creation introduced new factors that changed reality. Hitler and the killing of Jews were not ordained by God. Having children brings limits to the individual.
These limitations are in the wisdom and control of God. They do not take away from His essential sovereignty and greatness.
God_Is_Truth
New member
God's existence is necessary, duration is contingent upon his existence. no God = no duration.
God_Is_Truth
New member
you can't have evolution and the big bang without God.
I know that. I am not a theistic evolutionist either. I was trying to make a point that duration is reality if there is existence of any kind. Absolute nothingness is not reality and impossible to comprehend since it is a false premise.
God is the First Cause. Personal does not come from impersonal. Something does not come from nothing. Theistic creationism is the only rational explanation for existence. Existence is reality and mandates that duration is also necessary (or there is no existence).
I find it odd that science holds as fact that idea that you can not have something come from nothing, yet they allow the theories that say exactly that thrive.:doh:
STONE
New member
OV’ers:
As God_Is_Truth has said “logic is a tool”; this is true…a great tool it is. But you are making logic your God. God has said directly nothing is impossible for Him; you have denied His Word here by putting conditions on Him. You have implied your “rationale” has precedence over His Word and his omnipotence.
God can, whenever He wants to, take a contradiction and turn it into a non- contradiction. He can take a fallacy and turn it into truth. That is only one way He can 'confound the wisdom of the wise'.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
“Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him? For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider it? For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ***’s colt.”
Your rational incoherencies:
1.God cannot be in a place that does not exist.
2.God cannot make a perfect sphere that has sharp corners.
3.God cannot create Himself.
4.Can God exist and not exist at the same time?
5.can he be here and not here at the same time?
6. God cannot be all powerful and having no power?
7. God cannot be all knowing and yet know nothing?
8. God cannot be be all loving and have no love?
Even my human understanding can comprehend God overcoming the majority of your above challenges to His Power.
The one or two my mind cannot comprehend God overcoming, I believe He could overcome (based on his Word) if He chose to, though not that He would choose to.
God truly can and does do the “impossible”…defying our carnal understanding and logic.
As God_Is_Truth has said “logic is a tool”; this is true…a great tool it is. But you are making logic your God. God has said directly nothing is impossible for Him; you have denied His Word here by putting conditions on Him. You have implied your “rationale” has precedence over His Word and his omnipotence.
God can, whenever He wants to, take a contradiction and turn it into a non- contradiction. He can take a fallacy and turn it into truth. That is only one way He can 'confound the wisdom of the wise'.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.”
“Canst thou by searching find out God? canst thou find out the Almighty unto perfection? It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? Deeper than hell; what canst thou know? The measure thereof is longer than the earth, and broader than the sea. If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him? For he knoweth vain men: he seeth wickedness also; will he not then consider it? For vain man would be wise, though man be born like a wild ***’s colt.”
Your rational incoherencies:
1.God cannot be in a place that does not exist.
2.God cannot make a perfect sphere that has sharp corners.
3.God cannot create Himself.
4.Can God exist and not exist at the same time?
5.can he be here and not here at the same time?
6. God cannot be all powerful and having no power?
7. God cannot be all knowing and yet know nothing?
8. God cannot be be all loving and have no love?
Even my human understanding can comprehend God overcoming the majority of your above challenges to His Power.
The one or two my mind cannot comprehend God overcoming, I believe He could overcome (based on his Word) if He chose to, though not that He would choose to.
God truly can and does do the “impossible”…defying our carnal understanding and logic.
STONE
New member
General concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:
Current standings-
1.Concepts do not exist
Denied by: Clete, lighthouse, Godrulz, God_Is_Truth
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
Denied by:
3. Existence + an event =sequence
Denied by:
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
Denied by: Godrulz
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
Denied by:Clete, God_Is_Truth,
6. Everlasting=Eternal
Denied by: Clete, Lighthouse, God_Is_Truth,
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
Denied by:
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
Denied by:
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.
Denied by:
Current standings-
1.Concepts do not exist
Denied by: Clete, lighthouse, Godrulz, God_Is_Truth
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
Denied by:
3. Existence + an event =sequence
Denied by:
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
Denied by: Godrulz
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
Denied by:Clete, God_Is_Truth,
6. Everlasting=Eternal
Denied by: Clete, Lighthouse, God_Is_Truth,
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
Denied by:
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
Denied by:
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.
Denied by:
Few Christian thinkers and philosophers would agree with your conclusions. How can a circle be a square at the same time? It is either a circle or a square. God cannot incarnate as Jesus Christ, Hitler, Mother Teresa, Buddha, and George W. Bush at the same time and place. Nothing is impossible for God? Can God turn Himself into an apple or orange or frog and run the universe as an apple never to be the uncreated triune Creator again? Some things are absurd, mutually exclusive, diametrically opposed, etc. even for God. He is a God of order, intelligence, wisdom, and beauty. He is not a 4 headed, 10 legged, two stomach freak, nor does He run a universe without logic, rules, evidence of intelligence, etc. If nothing is impossible for God, could He cease to exist and become a second moon to the earth? Get a grip. You make truth, language, communication, reality meaningless and incoherent. This is not God's revelation of reality.
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Hey Stone if you get a chance try to make a point, otherwise move on.
I'm trying to figure out what makes STONE think I denied those things.:liberals: I clarified what I meant, but I never denied that concepts don't really exist. And I don't remember saying anything about Eternal and everlasting.
Stone,
None of the Scripture you've quoted even suggests that God can do the rationally absurd. The point is that there are lots of things that we humans absolutely cannot do (create a planet for example, never mind a whole universe with living creatures in it) that God can do very easily, no one is denying that. But the Bible is not irrational and neither should you be. And make no mistake; your position is totally irrational, by definition!
Logic is not simply a tool, it is a fundamental aspect of reality; it is completely and utterly inescapable. To suggest that God can do something that is logically absurd, is to remove the very foundation upon which our trust in the Scripture is based! Without logic we can know nothing! And I mean nothing at all! We cannot know that the Bible is true because it takes logic to make that determination. If logic is thrown out the window, how do we know that God will not turn a lie into the truth and the truth into a lie? How do we know? We can't know!
God said He is coming back, how do we know that God won't turn that promise into nothing more than a figment of our collective imagination?
God promised us a heavenly reward. How do we know that Heaven won't be turned into Hell the moment we get there? We can't without logic.
You cannot say that you trust God without logic.
You cannot say that you love God without logic.
You cannot read the Bible without logic.
You cannot love your neighbor without logic.
You cannot believe without logic.
God could not figure out a plan of salvation without logic.
You can't read this post without logic.
You can't imagine the removal of logic without logic.
You cannot escape logic at all! Your position is COMPLETE irrationality and is therefore false, I don't care how many Bible verses you quote.
If the Christian faith cannot stand up to logical scrutiny then it should be discarded. As Paul himself said, "...if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." How can you know that Christ is risen if God can disregard logic? You can't! As far as you know God made it all up and turned the lie into the truth, and is just as likely to do the opposite tomorrow.
Resting in Him,
Clete
It is too bad Francis Schaeffer is dead. He would be able to clarify Stone's faulty thinking. God is a God of absolutes. Relativism is a worldly philosophy. Mathematics is precise and a reflection of God's order. Objective reality is knowable and true. Subjective opinions on what is true is a weak foundation.
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Smashing! :thumb:
Literally smashing! :Clete:
God_Is_Truth
New member
no one is saying it is. duration is an aspect of his necessary existence. thus, since God has always existed, duration has always been occuring as well.