Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[Delmar]

Originally posted by STONE

Knight, Godrulz, Clete, and any who consider themselves OVers, please answer this question:

Could God exist without time,
or is His existence (in some way) dependent upon time?

Since God is he also was and will be . So the question you seem to be asking is could God exist without being? Let's look at it another way. Could God exist without awareness? Or could God be aware of what is, without being aware of what was, or that something will be?

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by LightSon



"When the trumpet of the Lord shall sound and time shall be no more....."

It is true that we OV'ers tend to make fun of songs like that!:bannana:

Oh BTW Bring it on I'll be happy to play! My_God_can_beat_up_your_Q. Because my God is real!

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Clete,
I'm not taking your sarcasm personally, but observing that sarcasm is more important to you than forgiveness.

You cannot know this to be true based on anything I've said on this thread.
My comment about forgiving my sarcasm was aimed at getting you to not take the sarcasm personally. If you didn't take it personally then it succeeded. The whole point is that I was trying to be substantive not personal. Can you say the same about the comment quoted above?

Any OV argument presented appears to have now deteriorated into denial: "well that doesn't mean anything" or "that was influenced from another philosophy". I don't see any OV question or point left standing, if you do then present it...now; that is all I am looking for. Emotionality has nothing to do with it.

You have ignored my argument almost completely! How can you even think of saying that there is no point left standing? Have you actually read my posts?

The Judaic ideas I presented to you are nothing new. Look for yourself into most any commentary on classic Judaism or the Talmud. Or ask your local orthodox rabbi if he will talk to you.

Should I take this to mean that you cannot site your source, or that you will not site your source?

Where did you get the idea that I believe eastern or Egyptian religion had influence on Christian theology? My point was the idea predates the Greeks. The connection between Christian theology and timelessness is Judaism, not Greece.

What would have been the point of bringing up Eastern or Egyptian beliefs if not to suggest that they have had some influence on Christian theology?
There are four main points…

1. I know of no historical evidence that what you are saying is true in the first place. Where do you get the idea that the Egyptians believed in the timelessness of their gods? And there's no telling what you even mean by Eastern religions. It's very possible that they did have some concept of a timeless deity but they also have no trouble with internal contradictory ideas in their theologies (both/and vs. either/or logic) so I suspect it doesn't matter.

2. If such evidence of their beliefs in the timelessness of god exists, it has no connection whatsoever to Christian theology. At best all you've done is show that pagans have no trouble with such an irrational idea.

3. Every theology in the current Christian faith that has anything to do with the timelessness of God can be traced directly back to Plato. There is no earlier sources for such beliefs that have anything to do with Christianity. Basically speaking, had Augustine not believed these things, neither would you, and Augustine's theology was undeniably influenced by Aristotelian philosophy to say the least.

4. Who came up with the irrational concept of a timeless god makes no difference at all! Proving the source of an irrational idea is not required; it's irrational and therefore must be false, so whoever it was who came up with it first is a non issue, they were wrong and so are you.

This 4th point is the primary point that I have been making that you have not responded to at all (unless I missed it).
Please explain how something that exists can do so without duration, if you can. If you cannot, then points 1-3 are moot.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Knight, Godrulz, Clete, and any who consider themselves OVers, please answer this question:

Could God exist without time,
or is His existence (in some way) dependent upon time?

When I read this question this is what it says in my head...

Could God exist without duration and/or sequence,
or is His existence (in some way) dependent upon duration and/or sequence?

The question is irrational. How can something that actually exists do so without duration and if there is any event other than God's own existence then there must also be sequence as well.
Without duration their is no existence. If anything exists then it has done so for some duration. God's has endured forever, thus He has existed for an infinite length of time.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[wickwoman]

Dear Stone:

I believe time is a measuring device used by humans to explain how our movement through events affects us. Past that, I see no use for it. And, as for God, why would something eternal have need of time? In order for time to make sense there must be beginning and end. Otherwise, there is no point for the measurement. And, if God had/has neither then it is irrelevent.

 

[godrulz]

God is from everlasting to everlasting. He is uncreated with no beginning and end. This is an everlasting, infinite duration. What about the interval between eternity past, creation, the present, and the distant future. God is experiencing an endless duration of time. This is not a limitation. Time is not a thing or place.

 

[STONE]

(Update)So far OVers have:

Sozo: Time is not a thing
Lighthouse: Duration exists; God cannot exist w/o duration; concepts do not exist.
Godrulz: Time is an integral aspect of God's existence, time existed before the universe so time always existed, all experience requires time, eternal=everlasting, God cannot do what is “illogical”, time moves forward only for God, God cannot change the past, duration is eternal, time is not a thing or place.
deardelmar: Awareness of past, present, and future is integral to God’s existence.
Clete: Duration is integral to existence, existence + an event =sequence.


Anyone else?

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by STONE




deardelmar: Awareness of past, present, and future is integral to God’s existence.

That was in the form of a question. Do you have a response?

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by deardelmar

That was in the form of a question. Do you have a response?

Sorry, I derived understanding of your position from your questioning. How could I rephrase your position, or was that the gist of it?

I will respond to all the points made once the OV'ers have answered the question.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

Essentially, yes.

care to explain how that could possibly be?

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
care to explain how that could possibly be?

Please clarify your question. Is it your position that God could not exist without duration?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

Please clarify your question. Is it your position that God could not exist without duration?

Maybe the question is a non-starter. Is it like saying that 'could God exist without will, intellect, emotion'? If He did exist, He would be an impersonal 'it'/force. Duration/sequence/succession (time) is an inherent aspect of personal reality.

I used to do mental gymnastics trying to justify the 'eternal now' concept assuming it was the only possible belief about God's experience. The reason I could never figure it out was that it is incoherent. The analogies C.S. Lewis used sounded good on the surface, but were flawed and refutable on closer examination. The simplest reading of God's revelation in Scripture is that divine and human history is His Story. It is chronological from eternity past to eternity future (everlasting duration vs timelessness).

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

Please clarify your question. Is it your position that God could not exist without duration?

existence of any amount of time necessarily takes duration. since God has eternally existed, he has existed for an eternal amount of duration. so my answer is no, and the reason is that nothing can exist without duration taking place.

 

[STONE]

(Update#2)So far OVers have:

Sozo: Time is not a thing
Lighthouse: Duration exists; God cannot exist w/o duration; concepts do not exist.
Godrulz: Time is an integral aspect of God's existence, time existed before the universe so time always existed, all experience requires time, eternal=everlasting, God cannot do what is “illogical”, time moves forward only for God, God cannot change the past, duration is eternal, time is not a thing or place, God and man are inextricably linked by duration.
deardelmar: Awareness of past, present, and future is integral to God’s existence.
Clete: Duration is integral to existence, existence + an event =sequence.
God_Is_Truth:God's existence requires duration.

Knight, can you also answer post #571 also?

 

[Yorzhik]

STONE, add Yorzhik to Clete's answer. Asking whether God can exist without duration is just like asking if God can exist and not exist at the same time.

 

[STONE]

(Update#3) OVers have:

Sozo: Time is not a thing
Lighthouse: Duration exists; God cannot exist w/o duration; concepts do not exist.
Godrulz: Time is an integral aspect of God's existence, time existed before the universe so time always existed, all experience requires time, eternal=everlasting, God cannot do what is “illogical”, time moves forward only for God, God cannot change the past, duration is eternal, time is not a thing or place, God and man are inextricably linked by duration.
deardelmar: Awareness of past, present, and future is integral to God’s existence.
Clete: Duration is integral to existence, existence + an event =sequence.
God_Is_Truth:God's existence requires duration.
Yorzhik: Duration is integral to existence

 

[STONE]

Below are the general concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:

1. Concepts do not exist
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
3. Existence + an event =sequence
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
6. Everlasting=Eternal
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.

Sozo, Lighthouse, Godrulz, deardelmar, Clete, God_Is_Truth, and Yorzhik please confirm your agreement (Y), or disagreement (N) with fellow OV’ers concepts.

For example:
1-N
2-N
3-N
4-N
5-N
6-N
7-N
8-N
9-N

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Below are the general concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:

1. Concepts do not exist
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
3. Existence + an event =sequence
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
6. Everlasting=Eternal
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.

Sozo, Lighthouse, Godrulz, deardelmar, Clete, God_Is_Truth, and Yorzhik please confirm your agreement (Y), or disagreement (N) with fellow OV’ers concepts.

1-Y
2-Y
3-Y
4-Y
5-N Time does not exist (except as a concept (see number one))
6-N 'Everlasting' only aproaches eternity. God, who has always existed, is the only truly eternal being.
7-Y
8-Y
9-Y

For clarities sake, I would add that simple yes or no answers can sometimes get one in trouble. As stated some of these statements are incomplete but I agree with the intended meaning, but not necessarily the apparant meaning of the stated concepts.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

Below are the general concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:

1. Concepts do not exist
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
3. Existence + an event =sequence
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
6. Everlasting=Eternal
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.

Sozo, Lighthouse, Godrulz, deardelmar, Clete, God_Is_Truth, and Yorzhik please confirm your agreement (Y), or disagreement (N) with fellow OV’ers concepts.

For example:
1-N
2-N
3-N
4-N
5-N
6-N
7-N
8-N
9-N

1-Y [I said it]
2-Y
3-Y
4-Y
5-Y [only if time=duration. if you mean the concept of time, then N]
6-N [I'm with Clete on this one]
7-Y
8-Y
9-Y

 

[godrulz]

1. Concepts do not exist

I am not sure what this means. A concept is a thought or idea. They exist in the mind, but not in reality. A concept car can exist as an actual model before production status.


2. God cannot do what is “illogical”

Logical absurdities or self-contradictory things are not doable even for God.

3. Existence + an event =sequence

Existence involves sequence. Events involve sequence.

4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.

I suppose duration is an interval between time A and B.


5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal

Time has always been. It was not created in Gen. 1:1. It is not a thing, so 'existed' might not be the best word.

6. Everlasting=Eternal

As opposed to eternal meaning timelessness.


7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence

It is an aspect of His existence like will, intellect, and emotions. God would be static and impersonal without duration.

8. God and man are inextricably linked by
duration

Both experience duration as an aspect of existence. A timeless being would be hard pressed to integrate with beings in time.


9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.

Time is unidirectional, period. It moves from the open future to the fixed past through the present. The past is fixed and known only as a memory. It cannot be changed except in science fiction movies.


I am not sure these are the best way to phrase these concepts. We need to be precise in what we mean by phrases.