Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[STONE]

Let's look at some of these concepts:

1. Concepts do not exist (Y,Y,Y)

Concept is considered a noun.
If thoughts in ones mind are not “existing”, then what are they doing?
God’s thoughts do not “exist”?
Does wisdom or knowledge “exist”?
Does love or hate “exist”?
What about memories, do they “exist”?
Is logic not “reality”, just a “non-existent” concept?

 

[godrulz]

What is the bottom line in your mind? Do concepts exist? God is not a concept. He is objective reality. Time is not matter, yet the idea of time is cogent.

 

[STONE]

Of course concepts exist.

Maybe Lighthouse can reword his position as "concepts are not tangible".

 

[Clete]

Right! When discussing such things it is important to stay on the same page as those making particular claims. Of course things like time and other concepts exist in our minds as concepts but the point is that if their was no thinking mind, concepts such as time would not continue to exist at all. Events would continue and those events would have duration and sequence and so from that perspective time would continue but only from that perspective. Time is not a thing that has been created through which events move and have there being. It can't be destroyed or manipulated or observed in some objective fashion. Time is neither physical nor spiritual; it is simply an idea, a concept, nothing more.

Picking nits about whether concepts exist is a distraction from the real issue. If it is clear what is meant, just move on.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[STONE]

Ok, now concepts do exist.

Let's go on to point #2:



2. God cannot do what is “illogical” (Y,Y,Y): Ov'ers, please explain what you mean.
Consider:
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?"
"With God all things are possible."
"Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"
"Ah Lord God...there is nothing too hard for thee"
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?"

 

[STONE]

Here is a few more to consider:

"And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men these things are impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."

"And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God."

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts."

"I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee."


...Also, is it rational and logical that 5 barley loaves abd 2 fishes should feed 5000 men, plus all the women and children?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by STONE

"With God all things are possible."

"...it is impossible for God to lie".

 

[STONE]

That is correct Sozo. That is because His word does not return void; His will is accomplished.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

That is correct Sozo.

If you agree that God cannot do something, why are you asking this question?


God is capable of doing anything that is doable but God cannot do the rationally incoherent. God cannot be in a place that does not exist. God cannot make a perfect sphere that has sharp corners. God cannot create Himself. It's not because of some weakness on God's part or some lack of wisdom or power in His being but simply because these things are self-contradictory. The law of non-contradiction applies to God as much as any other thing that exists in reailty.
This idea cannot be rejected without a rejection of rationality itself (I do mean "rationality" not "rationalism"). If you wish to be irrational that's your business but don't expect to be a very compelling debator.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

Below are the general concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:

1. Concepts do not exist
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
3. Existence + an event =sequence
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
6. Everlasting=Eternal
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.

Sozo, Lighthouse, Godrulz, deardelmar, Clete, God_Is_Truth, and Yorzhik please confirm your agreement (Y), or disagreement (N) with fellow OV’ers concepts.

For example:
1-N
2-N
3-N
4-N
5-N
6-N
7-N
8-N
9-N

1--certainly not in the same way we exist.
2--agree. example, God can't make a rock so big he can't lift it.
3--worded oddly, but i think i agree.
4--i explained what duration was in an earlier post.
5--absolutely not. time does not exist at all.
6--no, everlasting is half of eternal. eternal includes having always been whereas everlasting is only "always will be"
7--agree.
8--i don't know what you mean by linked, but we both experience duration. the effects of it however are not the same for both.
9--technically if God wanted to change the past he could freeze everything in the present and recreate things to be how they were in the moment he wishes to change and then unfreeze things, thus changing the past. but he cannot go back in time and undo it that way. that would imply the past still exists which it does not.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

Let's look at some of these concepts:

1. Concepts do not exist (Y,Y,Y)

Concept is considered a noun.
If thoughts in ones mind are not “existing”, then what are they doing?

they are not existing, the same way characters in a fiction book do not exist.

God’s thoughts do not “exist”?

they can certainly become manifest if he desires.

Does wisdom or knowledge “exist”?
Does love or hate “exist”?
What about memories, do they “exist”?
Is logic not “reality”, just a “non-existent” concept?

wisdom and knowledge are abstract concepts that do not exist in a strict sense like what we experience from day to day. rather, they are principles and information gained from that which does exist.

love and hate are thoughts, decisions and feelings based on the things that do exist.

memories are absolutely not real. they are our imagination recreating that which we experienced as real.

logic is also not something that exists, strictly speaking. it is a tool, a method of rationality by which we discern truth in regards to the things that do exist.

the reason these things don't exist is that they are all contingent on the mind. if the mind ceases to exist, these do not continue to exist on their own. if they did, they would have existence.

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

Ok, now concepts do exist.

Let's go on to point #2:



2. God cannot do what is “illogical” (Y,Y,Y): Ov'ers, please explain what you mean.
Consider:
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?"
"With God all things are possible."
"Is any thing too hard for the LORD?"
"Ah Lord God...there is nothing too hard for thee"
"Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord?"

Can God exist and not exist at the same time? can he be here and not here at the same time? all powerful and having no power? all knowing and yet know nothing? be all loving and have no love?

these are all logical contradictions that are impossible to do by definition. they have nothing to do with ability or power. if you believe God can do the logically impossible than it's fruitless to debate because there is literally nothing limited to God. if you say God is only outside of time, i can say he is only in time and you have to concede that he could be since he can do the impossible and contradictory. there is no way you could ever prove a point or win a debate if God can do the contradictory and impossible.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

Of course concepts exist.

Maybe Lighthouse can reword his position as "concepts are not tangible".

If you had read my entier post then you would know that that's what I meant. Stop pretending to be an idiot, that is if you're pretending.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
they are not existing, the same way characters in a fiction book do not exist.

they can certainly become manifest if he desires.

wisdom and knowledge are abstract concepts that do not exist in a strict sense like what we experience from day to day. rather, they are principles and information gained from that which does exist.

love and hate are thoughts, decisions and feelings based on the things that do exist.

memories are absolutely not real. they are our imagination recreating that which we experienced as real.

logic is also not something that exists, strictly speaking. it is a tool, a method of rationality by which we discern truth in regards to the things that do exist.

the reason these things don't exist is that they are all contingent on the mind. if the mind ceases to exist, these do not continue to exist on their own. if they did, they would have existence.

If thoughts did not exist then this discussion would not be possible. You are straining to deny that which is evident, and implying that which is not tangible has no existence.
Does heaven "exist", Does Spirit "exist"?
God has created thought in man; and has given it's use into the hand of man.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by lighthouse
God cannot exist without duration. Nothing can. And time is duration. Any other defintion of time is an invention of man, and is nothing more than a concept. And, being such, it does not actually exist.

How does this relate that "concepts are not tangible, but do exist"?

 

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by STONE

If thoughts did not exist then this discussion would not be possible.

yes, but they only "exist" as a function of our mind. if our minds do not exist, they do not continue to exist on their own.

You are straining to deny that which is evident, and implying that which is not tangible has no existence.

i am saying it has no independent existence.

Does heaven "exist"

yes, it is a very literal place.

Does Spirit "exist"?

yes.

God has created thought in man; and has given it's use into the hand of man.

God has given us the ability to create thoughts, but they do not exist independently of the mind. they are a function/tool/aspect of it and are contingent upon it's existence.

 

[STONE]

General concepts presented by Ov’ers regarding the relationship of time and God:

Current standings-
1.Concepts do not exist
Denied by: Clete, lighthouse, Godrulz,
2. God cannot do what is “illogical”
Denied by:
3. Existence + an event =sequence
Denied by:
4. Duration exists, but is not a place or a thing.
Denied by: Godrulz
5. Time existed before the universe, therefore time is eternal
Denied by:Clete, God_Is_Truth,
6. Everlasting=Eternal
Denied by: Clete, Lighthouse, God_Is_Truth,
7. Duration or time is integral to God’s existence
Denied by:
8. God and man are inextricably linked by duration
Denied by:
9. Time moves forward only for God, therefore God cannot change the past.
Denied by:

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
yes, but they only "exist" as a function of our mind. if our minds do not exist, they do not continue to exist on their own.
i am saying it has no independent existence.
yes, it is a very literal place.
yes.
God has given us the ability to create thoughts, but they do not exist independently of the mind. they are a function/tool/aspect of it and are contingent upon it's existence.

Right, thoughts do exist as as a function of our mind.

Regarding concepts have a contingent and dependent existence:
I would ask you what does not have a contingent and dependent existence?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you agree that God cannot do something, why are you asking this question?


God is capable of doing anything that is doable but God cannot do the rationally incoherent. God cannot be in a place that does not exist. God cannot make a perfect sphere that has sharp corners. God cannot create Himself. It's not because of some weakness on God's part or some lack of wisdom or power in His being but simply because these things are self-contradictory. The law of non-contradiction applies to God as much as any other thing that exists in reailty.
This idea cannot be rejected without a rejection of rationality itself (I do mean "rationality" not "rationalism"). If you wish to be irrational that's your business but don't expect to be a very compelling debator.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Secular and religious philosophers agree that any personal being, including God, cannot do logically contradictory things or absurdities. This is not a limitation on omnipotence. Clete has got to the core of the issue. Next point?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lighthouse

If you had read my entier post then you would know that that's what I meant. Stop pretending to be an idiot, that is if you're pretending.

Sometimes you need to be clearer, or someone might miss something. It does not make them an idiot or moron if you could have been clearer.