Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses
- Thread starter Christine
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If it could be demonstrated that a perfect God could to absurd things, we would accept that. Miracles are not rational, but we believe them. C.S. Lewis defended their rationality based on who God is and His revelation. This great thinker could not and would not defend God doing absurd and contradictory things (God's perspective and ours). He correctly understands what omnipotence means.
Your proof texts do not support your points. The context and common sense does not necessitate that God does irrational things, contrary to His revelation and wisdom. Quote verses, but interpret them properly. What God can do is contrasted with what man can do. I gave some extreme examples a few posts ago. Do you really think the infinite God can do these things? How would he make a black ball white at the same time? We would have to redefine everything, and God Himself would become unknowable and absurd. God revealed Himself in Christ in a specific way. He did not reveal Himself in rocks or idols. Could He? Would He? Omnipotence also does not mean that God does everything He could do. He could kill us all now, but He does not.
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No. Just type in the code. I used that one because that's what this thread is like with people like STONE.
God_Is_Truth
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define "rationally absurd". i deny that God can do the logically contradictory.
STONE
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Godrulz,
As you seem to be making my point for me, I hope other OV'ers can follow your reasoning. Of course God does and defines things according to His will in a certain way. For things to be different, He and we would have to redefine everything in creation. I do not say that He would do this, but I don't put anything beyond Him.
God doing the logically impossible:
Regarding the creation, we know movement is logically impossible; yet God has ordained movement.
For to move a certain distance, one must first move half of that distance. And to move half of that distance one must move half of that half. This goes on infinitely, and logically movement accross distance cannot occur.
Movement is logically impossible? It is evident that it is possible. Philosophy deals with infinity and increments. "A Treatise on Space and Time" by J.R. Lucas mathematically and logically deals with the question of an arrow getting closer to a target, but supposedly never reaching it according to your logic. It is fairly complex, but your philosophical assumptions are simply wrong and do not define interval, increment, instants, denseness, continuity, gaps, divisibility, etc. precisely. These and other concepts (quantum mechanics, etc.) must be differentiated and will prove that movement is possible and actual, as well as it will explain why the arrow does reach the target (which is self-evident, so your assumptions about infinity must be incorrect).
Hume, Aristotle and others are not always right. You speculate about theoretical things that have been proven or disproven. We are both out of our league to think we can defend our views. We do not have the tools and background to know all the issues. It is clear, though, that an assertion that movement is not logical displays ignorance of the resolution to your concerns. Why not accept reality as it is, instead of getting into arguments about how many angels dance on a pinhead?
STONE
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I have already stated that movement is evident. I am stating logic is not bulletproof.
You are substituting "theory" for "logic" in order to defend your position that logic cannot be undone. I have shown not a "theoretical" example, but a real life every day event that can be shown to be "logically" impossible, though evident.
Why don't you resolve the dilemma I presented, and proove me wrong? There is only one true resolution to this logical dillema, and that resolution will be shown to create a contradiction.
- Good Luck!
While you are at it, why don't you (or other OV'ers) explain the trinity and how 3=1, hence defying logic for us all?
God_Is_Truth
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you have not shown that movement is illogical. you have just shown that the measurement of it is infinite.
God_Is_Truth
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are you serious? i would expect this from an atheist or someone questioning the existence of God, but not from a christian!
STONE
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In order to cover any distance at all, no matter how short, the person/object must already have completed an infinite number of distances.
Can an infinite number of distances be logically (not evidently) completed? No. Any distance can be divided infinitely, and those distances cannot be completed logically, as they are infinite in number. Therefore the person/object cannot even get started.
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In nature, there are limited analogies of how 3 can be 1 and 1 can be 3. The triune nature of God is not a matter of logic. It is a revelation that is not unreasonable. God is infinite. Within the one spirit nature of God are 3 personal distinctions. We do not arrive at this by reason, but by revelation. This is how God has revealed Himself. We do not have to understand the relationship of the divine-human natures in Christ, but there is not contradiction. He is the unique God-Man (revelation vs reason).
E.g. Time= past, present, future...3 distinctions, but one time.
God is a compound unity, not a solitary being.
One cluster of grapes...all grapes by nature, but distinct, one army with many soldiers, one family with many members, etc.
Water= solid, liquid, gas...3 states that are different, yet all water as to nature/molecules.
Man= spirit, soul, body....distinct/tripartite, yet one man.
There are logical fallacies in play here. There are philosophical answers for this nonsense (you do the research...I read it, but cannot duplicate it off the top of my head). Quit playing word games like if a tree falls in the forest with no one around, does it make a sound? (Yes).
Which came first, the chicken or egg? (chicken)
Where did Cain get his wife? ('sister').
Did Adam have a belly button (maybe, maybe not).
As e4e's signature says, 1x1x1=1.
Concepts exist as nothing more than concepts. They are not real. Their intangibility has no bearing on that, because spirit is intangible, but real. Concepts do not exist as real things. Time is one of those things. Duration is not. Duration is intangible, but real. And we move from moment to moment by duration, as does God. God can not go back in time, because it is gone. It no longer exists. And He can not go into the future because it hasn't happened. It does not exist.
Could He make it exist, and therefore go into it? Possibly. But He doesn't. And He doesn't look into either of them either, because they do not exist. God knows what He will do, and He will bring things to pass. He also knows when He will do them. He also knows certain things that won't happen, because He won't let them. And that is because He has to make sure that He can do what He wants to do, when He wants to do it.