Great CD!
Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses
- Thread starter Christine
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God can do all that is logically doable=omnipotence. He cannot create a square circle or rock so big He cannot lift it. He cannot make Himself uncreated. This is not a deficiency in omnipotence or a limitation on God. It is simply an absurdity or logical contradiction.
Likewise, omniscience means to know all that is logically knowable. The Open View suggests that future free will contingencies are known as possibilities rather than actualities/certainties. When the choice is made, they are correctly known as an actual object of knowledge rather than a possibility. Modal logic is relevant here.
The nature of the future and knowability of future choices is in question. Neither the classical view nor Open Theism denies God's absolute omniscience. The latter simply recognizes that God knows reality and truth as it is (correctly knows the past and present perfectly, while the future is genuinely open due to the type of creation He chose= free moral agency with contingencies; the other motif is that some of the future is settled...that which God purposes to do regardless of man's choices).
Likewise, omniscience means to know all that is logically knowable. The Open View suggests that future free will contingencies are known as possibilities rather than actualities/certainties. When the choice is made, they are correctly known as an actual object of knowledge rather than a possibility. Modal logic is relevant here.
The nature of the future and knowability of future choices is in question. Neither the classical view nor Open Theism denies God's absolute omniscience. The latter simply recognizes that God knows reality and truth as it is (correctly knows the past and present perfectly, while the future is genuinely open due to the type of creation He chose= free moral agency with contingencies; the other motif is that some of the future is settled...that which God purposes to do regardless of man's choices).
Re: You can change the definition of immutability, but God remains immutable
Re: You can change the definition of immutability, but God remains immutable
Re: You can change the definition of immutability, but God remains immutable
Heceforth, thou shalt be known as "AiryHead."
AiryStottel
New member
This is for those who have written responses to me saying that God is not immutable. If you wish to ignore reason, which tells us that if God changes, then God becomes imperfect, because if God is perfect, and God IS perfect, then any change in God would become an imperfection. But if you don't want to use the gift of reason, then perhaps you might be interested in some biblical quotations, and there are dozens more on
God’s Immutability:
Psalm 89:34 “My covenant I will not violate, nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.” (Psalm 89:34)
1. Psalm 102:25-27 “Of old You did found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Even they will perish, but You do endure; and all of them will wear out like a garment; like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” (Psalm 102:25-27, Hebrews 1:10-12)
Isaiah 51:6 “Lift up your eyes to the sky, Then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, and the earth will wear out like a garment, and its inhabitants will die in like manner, But My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not wane.”
Malachi 3:6 “For I, Yehovah, do not change.”
James 1:17 “Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father-of-lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.”
Thank you for your responses,
Bye
God’s Immutability:
Psalm 89:34 “My covenant I will not violate, nor will I alter the utterance of My lips.” (Psalm 89:34)
1. Psalm 102:25-27 “Of old You did found the earth; And the heavens are the work of Your hands. Even they will perish, but You do endure; and all of them will wear out like a garment; like clothing You will change them, and they will be changed. But You are the same, and Your years will not come to an end.” (Psalm 102:25-27, Hebrews 1:10-12)
Isaiah 51:6 “Lift up your eyes to the sky, Then look to the earth beneath; For the sky will vanish like smoke, and the earth will wear out like a garment, and its inhabitants will die in like manner, But My salvation shall be forever, and My righteousness shall not wane.”
Malachi 3:6 “For I, Yehovah, do not change.”
James 1:17 “Every good thing bestowed and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father-of-lights, with whom there is no variation, or shifting shadow.”
Thank you for your responses,
Bye
We do not dispute that God's essential attributes and character do not change (immutability). It has been demonstrated that the Greek idea of perfection as absolute changelessness is not logically or philosophically defensible. I forget the apologetic writer who has refuted this hypothesis. God can and does change in His experiences and relations with His creatures. Your proof texts in context merely affirm that God is not fickle. They do not deal with ontological issues like His being. If God is personal, then new thoughts, acts, emotions involve sequence and change. The incarnation is an obvious example of a change in the triune God. Creation was a new reality in God's 'world' introducing endless new contingencies and experiences that were not always inherent in His being. Every birth and death obviously results in new knowledge and reality for God.
AiryStottel
New member
YOU WROTE
We do not dispute that God's essential attributes and character do not change (immutability). It has been demonstrated that the Greek idea of perfection as absolute changelessness is not logically or philosophically defensible.
MY RESPONSE
Prove that absolute changelessness is not logically or philosophically defensible, or at the very least, provide the proof that you are relying on. You cannot for this simple reason. An absolutely perfect circle cannot be made more perfect by changing it, else your absolutely perfect circle is not absolutely perfect. Likewise, an absolutely perfect being, God is the only one, cannot change, because any change would make God imperfect.
YOU WROTE
I forget the apologetic writer who has refuted this hypothesis. God can and does change in His experiences and relations with His creatures. Your proof texts in context merely affirm that God is not fickle. They do not deal with ontological issues like His being. If God is personal, then new thoughts, acts, emotions involve sequence and change. The incarnation is an obvious example of a change in the triune God. Creation was a new reality in God's 'world' introducing endless new contingencies and experiences that were not always inherent in His being. Every birth and death obviously results in new knowledge and reality for God.
MY RESPONSE
I “am” precisely dealing with God’s being. God’s creatures interact with God through God’s grace. For example, God’s infinite love is changeless, it is not diminished by God’s creation including creatures such as ourselves. Tapping into God’s infinite love, does not effect God’s infinite love one iota. We tap into the sun every day for heat, yet the sun’s heat is not diminished because we use it for heat. The problem with your argument is that you are using earthly analogies to explain eternal truths. And when you do this, you dig yourself deeper and deeper into creature logic instead of Creator logic. For example, you say “if God is personal, then new thoughts, acts, emotions involve sequence and change.” You undoubtedly don’t realize it, but you are making blasphemous statements, and by that I mean, you are stating something false about God. Since God is Absolutely Perfect, it is impossible, theologically, for God to have “new thoughts”, because absolute perfection precludes the necessity for God to have new thoughts. Your error arrives from the fact that you are trying to make God fit into a mold that is made on earth, and when you think about it, when you think about God’s infinitude and eternalness, where are you going to find a mold that God, Who is infinite and eteranl, can fit into?
I hope you don’t think I am being sarcastic, I am merely trying to take a most holy subject, and make it more understandable in earthly terms. God is very simple to understand. God is not an immobile statue. On the contrary, God is like a huge waterfall pouring out infinite love, mercy, justice, joy, beauty and an infinite number of wonderfully good things. And God does this eternally, constantly, faithfully, and lovingly.......because among other things....God is immutable.
If God changed, so would God’s love, mercy and so forth, but thankfully, we have nothing to fear regarding God’s immutability.
Joy to you and yours
We do not dispute that God's essential attributes and character do not change (immutability). It has been demonstrated that the Greek idea of perfection as absolute changelessness is not logically or philosophically defensible.
MY RESPONSE
Prove that absolute changelessness is not logically or philosophically defensible, or at the very least, provide the proof that you are relying on. You cannot for this simple reason. An absolutely perfect circle cannot be made more perfect by changing it, else your absolutely perfect circle is not absolutely perfect. Likewise, an absolutely perfect being, God is the only one, cannot change, because any change would make God imperfect.
YOU WROTE
I forget the apologetic writer who has refuted this hypothesis. God can and does change in His experiences and relations with His creatures. Your proof texts in context merely affirm that God is not fickle. They do not deal with ontological issues like His being. If God is personal, then new thoughts, acts, emotions involve sequence and change. The incarnation is an obvious example of a change in the triune God. Creation was a new reality in God's 'world' introducing endless new contingencies and experiences that were not always inherent in His being. Every birth and death obviously results in new knowledge and reality for God.
MY RESPONSE
I “am” precisely dealing with God’s being. God’s creatures interact with God through God’s grace. For example, God’s infinite love is changeless, it is not diminished by God’s creation including creatures such as ourselves. Tapping into God’s infinite love, does not effect God’s infinite love one iota. We tap into the sun every day for heat, yet the sun’s heat is not diminished because we use it for heat. The problem with your argument is that you are using earthly analogies to explain eternal truths. And when you do this, you dig yourself deeper and deeper into creature logic instead of Creator logic. For example, you say “if God is personal, then new thoughts, acts, emotions involve sequence and change.” You undoubtedly don’t realize it, but you are making blasphemous statements, and by that I mean, you are stating something false about God. Since God is Absolutely Perfect, it is impossible, theologically, for God to have “new thoughts”, because absolute perfection precludes the necessity for God to have new thoughts. Your error arrives from the fact that you are trying to make God fit into a mold that is made on earth, and when you think about it, when you think about God’s infinitude and eternalness, where are you going to find a mold that God, Who is infinite and eteranl, can fit into?
I hope you don’t think I am being sarcastic, I am merely trying to take a most holy subject, and make it more understandable in earthly terms. God is very simple to understand. God is not an immobile statue. On the contrary, God is like a huge waterfall pouring out infinite love, mercy, justice, joy, beauty and an infinite number of wonderfully good things. And God does this eternally, constantly, faithfully, and lovingly.......because among other things....God is immutable.
If God changed, so would God’s love, mercy and so forth, but thankfully, we have nothing to fear regarding God’s immutability.
Joy to you and yours
:up: Your post reminds me of one posted by Bob Enyart on TOL in March of 1998. It's always worth a repost...
When Jesus prayed to the Father, was this not new conversation that was not eternal to God? Communicating sequentially does not diminish perfection. To not be able to creatively think, act, feel would be imperfection and make the creature more free than the Creator. We are in the personal and moral image of God. When we pray to Him, this is a new expression from us that was not in God's experience before we were born. This love relationship is responsive and dynamic. It does not take away from God's perfection.
The incarnation is a change in the relations of the Godhead. The Word was not always flesh. This was not a change for the better or worse. It was new and different and reflected God's perfect revelation. Any thoughts on this CHANGE in God that refutes your assumption that any change in God would detract from His perfection.
How about the changing clock analogy. It is perfect because it changes. An unchanging God would be static and impersonal. The personal God of Scripture is dynamic, creative, and responsive.
The incarnation is a change in the relations of the Godhead. The Word was not always flesh. This was not a change for the better or worse. It was new and different and reflected God's perfect revelation. Any thoughts on this CHANGE in God that refutes your assumption that any change in God would detract from His perfection.
How about the changing clock analogy. It is perfect because it changes. An unchanging God would be static and impersonal. The personal God of Scripture is dynamic, creative, and responsive.
No there are not dozens more. You got all three of the Calvinists proof texts and added one that is totally off the topic.
And while we're proof texting, he's a few of mine, and there really are dozens more that I could quote...
- Luke 7:30 “30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”
Jeremiah 19:5 “5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:”
Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free
I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.
2 samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite
Jer. 15:6 - You have forsaken me and turned your back on me," says the LORD. "Therefore, I will raise my clenched fists to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.
Jer. 18:8, 10 - and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.
Jer 26:3 It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.
Jer 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the evil which I did to you.
Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.
Amo 7:3 The LORD repented concerning this; "It shall not be," said the LORD
Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.
1John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
John 4:42 Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world.”
Isaiah 5:
1 Now let me sing to my Well-beloved
A song of my Beloved regarding His vineyard:
My Well-beloved has a vineyard
On a very fruitful hill.
2 He dug it up and cleared out its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
He built a tower in its midst,
And also made a winepress in it;
So He expected it to bring forth good grapes,
But it brought forth wild grapes.
3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge, please, between Me and My vineyard.
4 What more could have been done to My vineyard
That I have not done in it?
Why then, when I expected it to bring forth good grapes,
Did it bring forth wild grapes?
5 And now, please let Me tell you what I will do to My vineyard:
I will take away its hedge, and it shall be burned;
And break down its wall, and it shall be trampled down.
6 I will lay it waste;
It shall not be pruned or dug,
But there shall come up briers and thorns.
I will also command the clouds
That they rain no rain on it."
7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah are His pleasant plant.
He looked for justice, but behold, oppression;
For righteousness, but behold, a cry for help.
Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,
John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
I know, I know, some of these don't speak to God changing in some way but they all give Calvinism a bloody nose so I left them in there.
Now, are you going to respond with any sort of substantive argument or aren't you? I know you're new here and all and we've sort of dog piled you a bit here but come on already, give us something.
Oh and by the way, if you want to know how we are formatting our posts so that the quotes appear as they do, go to my last response to you on this thread where I quoted from Webster's dictionary and hit the "quote" link in the bottom right hand corner of the post and it will bring up a response screen that will show you my every key stroke. That way you can see how I make the post look the way it looks. Knight has a page on the site somewhere that has all those formatting tips all in one place but I can never remember where it is.
I look forward to your response.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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It is the CHARACTER,NATURE and DISPOSITION of God that NEVER changes.
Thus in ANY situation He is the SAME and ACTS accordingly as the situation dictates.
As he is in heaven so He was ON earth as He is in heaven.
It is written that "HIS LIFE(on earth) is the LIGHT of emn and who enlightens every man that comethi into the world"
It is a wonder then to me who say they know the Lord but then say he changes!
LOOK then at the LIFE of Christ while He walked this earth and you will find the truth that He never changes but responds to situation as His character nature and disposition dictates.
Thus He is NEVER changed by curcumstances but always is not only the master of every curcumstance even the death of the cross but CHANGES those curcumstances accordingot HIS will.
ALL matters pertaining to THE faith(rather than of mans opinions) can and usualy are resolved in the Life of Christ.
in Christ
gerald uk
Thus in ANY situation He is the SAME and ACTS accordingly as the situation dictates.
As he is in heaven so He was ON earth as He is in heaven.
It is written that "HIS LIFE(on earth) is the LIGHT of emn and who enlightens every man that comethi into the world"
It is a wonder then to me who say they know the Lord but then say he changes!
LOOK then at the LIFE of Christ while He walked this earth and you will find the truth that He never changes but responds to situation as His character nature and disposition dictates.
Thus He is NEVER changed by curcumstances but always is not only the master of every curcumstance even the death of the cross but CHANGES those curcumstances accordingot HIS will.
ALL matters pertaining to THE faith(rather than of mans opinions) can and usualy are resolved in the Life of Christ.
in Christ
gerald uk
I agree with you generally. God does not change in His character, personality, holiness, etc. Those things that make Him who He is do not change, they are immutable. I have maintained this from the start. But to say that God does not change at all, in any way whatsoever, because to do so would render Him imperfect, is not only illogical but unbiblical. If God is utterly immutable He cannot be a living person able to, as you put it, "respond to situations as His character, nature and disposition dictates."
Indeed, this is point is the very foundation of the Calvinist doctrine of predestination...
- God is perfect.
- The perfect does not change. (Here is the primary faulty premise.)
- God does not change. (This conclusion follows but is based on a faulty premise and so is therefore faulty itself.)
- God does not change. (The faulty conclusion just stated now becomes a faulty premise.)
- Any addition to knowledge would be a change in knowledge.
- Therefore God’s knowledge does not change. (Another logical but faulty conclusion based on a faulty premise.)
- God’s knowledge does not change. (Again, the faulty conclusion becomes a faulty premise.)
- The future brings new events.
- God knows the future. (Faulty conclusion based faulty premise above)
If you remove my parenthetical commentary, this is the exact line of thinking that Aristotle used to determine that the future must be locked in place. Augustine picked the doctrine up from Aristotle and interpreted the Scripture in light of this Greek philosophical idea. Luther, an Augustinian monk, kept this idea alive through the reformation and Calvin formalized these ideas into a what we now call Calvinism. Calvinism is Greek philosophy; there is a direct historical line that can be traced very clearly back, not to Jewish tradition or to ancient Biblical texts, but to Aristotle and Plato.
Resting in Him,
Clete
AiryStottel
New member
To Clete,
I am not a crook, and certainly am not a Calvinist. All of your quotes combined are nothing more than complete obfuscation of the issue we are debating, the open theology concept.
So far, all I have received are blaspemous statements concerning the nature of God, namely, that "God is not immutable", that God is discursive, etc., etc. My first reaction was to just leave and let you sink into oblivion with all the other lemmings, but then I thought I saw a ray of hope in some of your arguments, that perhaps you are not incorrigible as I first thought, and that you truly want to know God as God truly is. I am always willing to help others know God, but when they think they can teach ME, then their ears are closed and their mind is already baked and fried by either drugs or excessively bloated pride.
On the subject of how these posts are handled, I appreciate your offer of help, but ordinarily, most forums have a button at the bottom of a post for responding to that post. So what I do, post in the quick reply window and hope it gets to the right place. Thank you for your offer of help, but I clicked the quote button as you said, but did not get anywhere. My main concern on that subject is to know how to reply to a given post only.
I sincerely hope these messages have done some good.
Airy
I am not a crook, and certainly am not a Calvinist. All of your quotes combined are nothing more than complete obfuscation of the issue we are debating, the open theology concept.
So far, all I have received are blaspemous statements concerning the nature of God, namely, that "God is not immutable", that God is discursive, etc., etc. My first reaction was to just leave and let you sink into oblivion with all the other lemmings, but then I thought I saw a ray of hope in some of your arguments, that perhaps you are not incorrigible as I first thought, and that you truly want to know God as God truly is. I am always willing to help others know God, but when they think they can teach ME, then their ears are closed and their mind is already baked and fried by either drugs or excessively bloated pride.
On the subject of how these posts are handled, I appreciate your offer of help, but ordinarily, most forums have a button at the bottom of a post for responding to that post. So what I do, post in the quick reply window and hope it gets to the right place. Thank you for your offer of help, but I clicked the quote button as you said, but did not get anywhere. My main concern on that subject is to know how to reply to a given post only.
I sincerely hope these messages have done some good.
Airy
Open theology is basically the oposite of Calvinism and everything you've said so far is in perfect line with normal Calvinist doctrine including your screen name. If you don't consider youself a Calvinist then fine but as long as you go quack, quack, quack, don't act surprised when people call you a duck.
And I am not obfuscating. Everything I've said has been in direct response to your exact words. You have said that God is immutable (utterly) and I have proven by both Scripture and by sound reason why you are wrong.
You can call it blasphemous all you like. Saying it doesn't make it so.
This site is not about stating your opinion it's about proving your position via Scripture and sound reason. If you cannot do that, fine, just say so. But if you are going to accuse me of balsphemy then I am going to ask you to prove your accusation or recant it.
Oh yes! Open theism is so common these days, surely I must just be followng the mindless herd!
On the contrary, I've been kicked out of churches and Sunday school classes and have generally found it nearly impossible to find any of my fellow lemmings anywhere within about 600 miles of where I live. I have no problem at all finding vast herds of Calvinist lemmings though; they're everywhere! They are in virtually every church that you see, virtually every single one. If either of us are lemmings, I'd say it was you, not me.
That is the ONLY thing that I think matters in this life. Everything else is secondary, everything.
This could be the most arogant, self important, hypocritical statement I have yet read on this site. Unbelievable. :nono:
Knight! :help:
Send Airy here a link to the page with all the posting info on it, please!
When you click on the quote link at the bottom of a post, it should take you to a page where there is a larger reply box which has the text of that particular post already in the reply box. I don't know why it didn't work for you, perhaps you could try it again. :shrug: (Hey, Knight! We need a :shrug: or and :iduno: smiley!)
Well if you would engage the debate perhaps they will! If you are willing and able to show me through Scripture and sound reason that I am wrong, I assure you I will change my position. I have done it before, and I'm sure I'll do it many times again. I would hope that you have the same attitude.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Tell us about yourself, Airystotle. Do you have a faith or denominational background? What books/authors do you enjoy reading? What is your educational/vocational background? It will help us have a better idea of what you believe. I do not recall seeing you post before.
AiryStottel
New member
YOU WROTE
You can call it blasphemous all you like. Saying it doesn't make it so.
This site is not about stating your opinion it's about proving your position via Scripture and sound reason. If you cannot do that, fine, just say so. But if you are going to accuse me of balsphemy then I am going to ask you to prove your accusation or recant it.
MY RESPONSE
Since God is absolute perfection, any changes to this perfection are causes of imperfection, just as any changes made to an absolutely perfect circle, make the circle no longer absolutely perfect. As long as you persist in stating that God is not immutable (meaning that God can change, or is even potentially capable of change) then that is blasphemy. Do you consider God to be absolute perfection, and still maintain that God is not immutable? Then you are being illogical by maintaining such an absurd position.
With respect to my sounding like a duck, you have yet to open your ears to know what I sound like, regarding my position on open theology. Free will is God’s gift for those who have received it so they have the opportunity to share in God’s beneficence, most especially, eternal joy and happiness with God, the Source of our being. What we do with this gift, does not change God’s being one iota, as I have explained previously, that the sun radiates its power of light, heat, and so forth for all to share. If we choose to live in caves for the rest of our lives, that is our choice, or if we choose to live where we can benefit from the sun, again that is our choice. In either case, the sun does not increase or decrease in its power because of our decision. Unlike the sun, God’s infinite knowledge is ever aware of who will or will not abuse the power of free will. If God were not aware, God would not be Infinite Knowledge. There are many paradoxes in God’s nature, such as God being infinitely just and infinitely merciful. They are paradoxes because they SEEM to contradict each other, but to those who know God, they are our most precious blessings. So it sounds paradoxical that God has given us free will, and yet, no matter what we do with it, God remains immutable.
If you continue to say that God is not immutable, or that God changes, you need to find another god, because you are worshiping a false god.
Will be gone for a while, keep searching until you find the one true God,
Airy
P.S. Still not used to this system of posting, I may have inadvertently sent a post a few minutes ago, please ignore it.
You can call it blasphemous all you like. Saying it doesn't make it so.
This site is not about stating your opinion it's about proving your position via Scripture and sound reason. If you cannot do that, fine, just say so. But if you are going to accuse me of balsphemy then I am going to ask you to prove your accusation or recant it.
MY RESPONSE
Since God is absolute perfection, any changes to this perfection are causes of imperfection, just as any changes made to an absolutely perfect circle, make the circle no longer absolutely perfect. As long as you persist in stating that God is not immutable (meaning that God can change, or is even potentially capable of change) then that is blasphemy. Do you consider God to be absolute perfection, and still maintain that God is not immutable? Then you are being illogical by maintaining such an absurd position.
With respect to my sounding like a duck, you have yet to open your ears to know what I sound like, regarding my position on open theology. Free will is God’s gift for those who have received it so they have the opportunity to share in God’s beneficence, most especially, eternal joy and happiness with God, the Source of our being. What we do with this gift, does not change God’s being one iota, as I have explained previously, that the sun radiates its power of light, heat, and so forth for all to share. If we choose to live in caves for the rest of our lives, that is our choice, or if we choose to live where we can benefit from the sun, again that is our choice. In either case, the sun does not increase or decrease in its power because of our decision. Unlike the sun, God’s infinite knowledge is ever aware of who will or will not abuse the power of free will. If God were not aware, God would not be Infinite Knowledge. There are many paradoxes in God’s nature, such as God being infinitely just and infinitely merciful. They are paradoxes because they SEEM to contradict each other, but to those who know God, they are our most precious blessings. So it sounds paradoxical that God has given us free will, and yet, no matter what we do with it, God remains immutable.
If you continue to say that God is not immutable, or that God changes, you need to find another god, because you are worshiping a false god.
Will be gone for a while, keep searching until you find the one true God,
Airy
P.S. Still not used to this system of posting, I may have inadvertently sent a post a few minutes ago, please ignore it.
Yeah that works. Thanks! I was actually reffering to the vB code info which is linked to on that page.
Here's link to the specific info I wanted Airy to see...
vB Code info
Thanks Knight, I'll book mark that so I'll have it handy the next time this comes up.
Don't worry Airy! Stick with it, you'll get it eventually! It took me a while myself! :chuckle:
Resting in Him,
Clete
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It is not absurd (logically).
I responded to this already. Your circle analogy doesn't work because God is not an inanimate object. He is alive. To suggest that any living thing perfect or otherwise cannot change is indeed logically absurd. The definition of being alive requires the ability to react to outside stimulus. A reaction is a change. And it is not a change for the better or for the worse. To assume that any change must necessarily be for the better or for the worse is an Aristotelian philosophical error. There is a third logical option.
Have you ever considered the possibility that if it is in the nature of some perfect thing to change then for it not to change would be a break down of one kind or another? That is precisely what I am saying. God is alive and by nature of that single fact, He must be able to react to things that happen. If God does not react to anything, He is not alive.
God is personal and relational as well. Before anything was every created, God had a loving and intimate relationship between the persons of the Trinity. This cannot happen if God is utterly immutable, it CANNOT HAPPEN.
In addition to this logical analysis, I have also demonstrated Biblically that God does in fact change in dramatic and undeniable ways.
Allow me to boil this down a bit in the hopes of making some better progress. If you will, please answer the following few questions...
Has God always been a man?
Has God ever been a man?
Is God a man today?
Has God ever died?
Is God dead now?
In what way is it possible to reconcile the incarnation, crucifixion, burial and resurrection with the idea that God is utterly immutable?
Then tell me where I am wrong. Simple.
Okay, great! No Open Theist would disagree with this much of what you said in principle.
Define "infinite knowledge" and provide Biblical support for applying that definition to the God of the Bible.
This is not so. If by infinite knowledge you mean that God knows everything that is knowable then it causes no problem logically or Biblically to say that God cannot know the actions of free will agents because to be free one must be able to do or to do otherwise. If God knows in advance what I will do then my ability to do otherwise does not exist and so neither does my freedom.
Both terms "infinitely just" and "infinitely merciful" are not Biblical terms or ideas. They are also mutually exclusive and therefore logically incoherent (a lot worse than a simple paradox). "Perfectly just" is a Biblical idea as is the idea that God is merciful but these are not mutually exclusive nor logically incoherent or even paradoxical for that matter.
The Bible makes sense Airy, it does you no good to cling to pious sounding clichés and appeal to the fact that you can't understand them as evidence of their piety and truth. I agree that we cannot dream of fully understanding God but we can understand more than you are letting on, and the rest we are not responsible for.
You confuse paradox with contradiction; they are not the same thing. The former only implies missing information or faulty understanding, the latter implies logical incoherence.
The fact that there is ONE God who exists as three persons, what we refer to as the doctrine of the Trinity is a great example of paradox. We do not understand because there is information about the nature of God in this respect that we do no have access to. The concept transcends our ability to comprehend it but it is vitally important to know that the doctrine of the Trinity IS NOT SELF CONTRADICTORY! It is not logically incoherent in any respect. In fact the Trinity must be logically presupposed in order to make logical sense of the world around us, but that's a topic for another thread.
Saying it doesn't make it so Airy. I have demonstrated both the Biblical support and the logical soundness of my position, you have done neither.
Merry Christmas to you and your family! I too will be gone after today for a few days so I hope we can continue next week.
And don't worry about your posts; you'll get it figured out eventually! :thumb:
Resting in Him,
Clete
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This ancient pagan Greek philosophy is fatally flawed. Clete already responded to this point but I wanted to comment as well.
A perfect clock changes all day long!
A broken clock is immutable.
Think about it like this.... Imagine a perfect glass sphere. Because the sphere is inanimate *almost any change in it would make it imperfect (*unless of course it changed by becoming slightly smaller or slightly larger in which case it would remain perfect).
Yet now imagine a machine that makes perfect glass spheres
What if you had a machine that created perfect glass spheres? Now we have ourselves a animate object that by definition MUST move and change position all day long for it to continue to pump out perfect glass spheres. If our perfect glass sphere making machine became immutable we would then know to call the repairman for we would know that our perfect glass sphere making machine is broken.
And therein lies the key to the faulty "logic" in your assertion that God cannot change and remain perfect.
- Perfect inanimate objects do not change (necessarily) .
- Perfect animated objects change by definition.
God is NOT an inanimate object! God is the living God He is not dead but alive and therefore He changes by definition.
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