Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[STONE]

Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

That depends on how you define eternity.

Time is not a place or a thing that has its own independent existence. It is not a created thing. It is an idea, a frame of reference, if you will, by which a thinking mind accounts for sequence and duration. Hours, minutes, days, weeks, years, eternity, etc is not what time is, they are measurements of time but they are not time itself. Time is simply that which happens between to events. If God planned creation before performing it, then that planning was an event, and so was the creation itself an event; and so there was a sequence to those events and a duration to each of those events and a duration in-between those events, thus there was time before creation, by definition.
Something that has limitless time or an infinite amount of time is eternal, which is just the exact opposite of what you are suggesting with your post. Eternity is not the absence of time but the infinite abundance of it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You would agree that God existed before the creation.
Therefore before the creation, before any events or sequence of them occured, where was time?

Another thing...the Lord says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending"
What is He the begining and ending of?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Sorry to step in but.....

Originally posted by STONE

You would agree that God existed before the creation.

YES

Therefore before the creation, before any events or sequence of them occured, where was time?

Of course there was time before creation!

It is irrational to think otherwise. God is the Living God, He is a rational God. He thinks one thought after another thought and does one thing after another thing. And because God is a rational God He created the universe in a rational way in that events happen sequentially. Time, like love, or like mercy, or justice, or righteousness, were not created at creation.

You continue...

Another thing...the Lord says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending"
What is He the begining and ending of?

This phrase is used to demonstrate that God can bring a end to any "age" or time period. God brought creation into existence, God will also determine the end of times on His schedule and no one else's.

 

[godrulz]

Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by AiryStottel

Whatever side you are on, please note that as far as God is concerned, there is no future, for if there were, God would exist in time. Since God is eternal, how could God exist in the past OR the future?

So this argument is wasting valuable time and energy.

The future or past are not places or things. The past is fixed and no longer exists. The future is open and does not exist. Only the present is reality. The potential future becomes the fixed past moment by moment. Time is succession, duration, sequence so God cannot be 'in' the past or future. These are not place to be 'in'. He knows the past and present perfectly. He knows the future as a possibility except in the things He purposes to bring to pass regardless of human factors.

God exists in an everlasting, unidirectional duration of time. Eternity is not timelessness.

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by Knight

Sorry to step in but.....

God is the Living God, He is a rational God. He thinks one thought after another thought and does one thing after another thing.

Is God the beginning and ending of His own thoughts?

This phrase is used to demonstrate that God can bring a end to any "age" or time period.

So You are saying God is the beginning and ending of periods of time?
In other words God is the source of time?

 

[godrulz]

Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by STONE

You would agree that God existed before the creation.
Therefore before the creation, before any events or sequence of them occured, where was time?

Another thing...the Lord says "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the ending"
What is He the begining and ending of?

Before creation, the triune God communicated, fellowshipped, loved, experienced relationally. He had will, intellect, emotions. These personal experiences require sequence/succession/duration='time'.

Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End (+ Rev. 1:8= time tenses) are titles that show God is from everlasting to everlasting (Ps. 90:2 'before'= time reference) i.e. He has no beginning and no ending= eternal. Eternity does not mean timelessness (false assumption influenced by Greek philosophy). The Hebraic view of eternity is that it is an endless duration of history.

 

[godrulz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by STONE

Is God the beginning and ending of His own thoughts?




So You are saying God is the beginning and ending of periods of time?
In other words God is the source of time?

Time is an aspect of God's reality as it is for us. You cannot see it under a microscope or with a telescope. It is not a created thing (this wrong idea creates confusion).

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by STONE

deardelmar,
Let's take the fact that Peter didn't humble himself, or if it were even possible, off the table because it didn't happen.
Now answer the question in post 393 if you would, please.

If you take Peter's free will off the table the question is pointless indeed!

 

[Delmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by Knight

Sorry to step in but.....

Glad to have you here:thumb:

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by godrulz

Before creation, the triune God communicated, fellowshipped, loved, experienced relationally. He had will, intellect, emotions. These personal experiences require sequence/succession/duration='time'.

Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End (+ Rev. 1:8= time tenses) are titles that show God is from everlasting to everlasting (Ps. 90:2 'before'= time reference) i.e. He has no beginning and no ending= eternal. Eternity does not mean timelessness (false assumption influenced by Greek philosophy). The Hebraic view of eternity is that it is an endless duration of history.

Relational experience does not require time.

How you are getting beginingless and endless from beginning and ending seems quite a stretch.

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by godrulz

Time is an aspect of God's reality as it is for us. You cannot see it under a microscope or with a telescope. It is not a created thing (this wrong idea creates confusion).

The question was "is God the source of time?" if He creates and ends periods of time, or even those sequences of events that "form" time.

 

[Delmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by STONE

Relational experience does not require time.

nor does it negate time!

How you are getting beginingless and endless from beginning and ending seems quite a stretch.

God always was and always will be. That doesn't mean time didn't always exist or that it will end.

 

[STONE]

Would anyone deny that God is the source of the sequence of events that form the concept of time?

 

[Clete]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by STONE

Relational experience does not require time.

How so? Please explain, or are you just saying things to be saying them?
As far as I can tell, this is an irrational statement. It is self-contradictory; "experience" requires that something happen which requires time. How am I wrong?

How you are getting beginingless and endless from beginning and ending seems quite a stretch.

It is saying that everything began with Him and everything will end with Him; that before anything else was He existed and after everything else perishes He will remain. It's called a figure of speech.

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
It is saying the everything began with Him and everything will end with Him; that before anything else was He existed and after everything else perishes He will remain. It's called a figure of speech.

Perfectly said.

 

[Clete]

Originally posted by STONE

Would anyone deny that God is the source of the sequence of events that form the concept of time?

He is the source of the events but the events aren't time. It is the sequence of events and thier duration that form what we percieve as time. Time, outside a thinking mind, does not exist. It is not a real thing any more than Narnia is a real place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
How so? Please explain, or are you just saying things to be saying them?
As far as I can tell, this is an irrational statement. It is self-contradictory; "experience" requires that something happen which requires time. How am I wrong?

Fair enough question. Let's extend your points.

Experience does not require something to "happen", only something to experience. Why cannot God experience Himself?
Isn't "I AM" is His name...instead of "I AM...but only if there is something happening".

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

He is the source of the events but the events aren't time. It is the sequence of events and thier duration that form what we percieve as time. Time, outside a thinking mind, does not exist. It is not a real thing any more than Narnia is a real place.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Correct.

So He then is the source of the sequence of events, which are the source of the duration, which form what we percieve as time. So effectually He becomes the source of all, including time.

 

[Delmar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by STONE

The question was "is God the source of time?" if He creates and ends periods of time, or even those sequences of events that "form" time.

Since time is a unit of measurement, I guess it is fair to say that if God didn't exsist neither would time. since , however, God has always exsisted so has time always exsisted.

 

[STONE]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: There is no future in God, so who is begging the question?

Originally posted by deardelmar

Since time is a unit of measurement, I guess it is fair to say that if God didn't exsist neither would time. since , however, God has always exsisted so has time always exsisted.

Fair assessment.

Would anyone disagree with deardelmar?

 

[STONE]

Now consider this:

Deardelmar has said if God didn't exist, then neither would time.

Could one also say if time didn't exist, then neither would God?