Open Theism Stirs Controversy on College Campuses

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

Stone: What is your religious or philosophical background? Do you consider yourself an evangelical Christian?

I believe some things are mutually exclusive based on laws of logic and reasoning, theology, philosophy, etc.

Either Jesus is a created being or He is uncreated Creator. He cannot be both (incarnation is different than pre-existence). If something is A and non-B, then it cannot be A and B at the same time. A square circle is illogical. Just because God is God, does not mean absurdities become sensical in His realm. e.g. Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it? Omnipotence does not mean that God can do self-contradictory things. The problem is with the illogical question, not a limitation in God's power (cf. God cannot create a square circle). 2+2=4 2+2 does not equal 9 in God's world.

Either God is timeless in His being (whatever that means) or He experiences time.

God reveals Himself as personal vs inanimate or impersonal. Personal pronouns are used of Him. We are personal, created in His moral, spiritual, and personal image. A person has will, intellect, and emotions (act, think, feel). They are self-conscious. These attributes are ascribed to God. He fellowships, communicates, loves. He is not an impersonal force (it) or cosmic principle.

If He is personal, is He triune (yes) or solitary? Are there many gods or one God (yes)?

Wolterstorff's view resonates with reality and Scripture. The simplest reading of Scripture shows God experiencing history as it unfolds. He is the covenant God relating to His people in time. There is no hint of God being timeless except in philosophical speculation. Read the book to compare and contrast the main views. Then make up your own mind in light of Scripture and reasoning.

Eternity seems to be an endless succession of time (duration). God had no beginning (uncreated) and He will have no end. Eternity goes into infinity past and infinity future. The past, present, and future are real to God. He has a past, experiences the present, and does not live in the non-existent future. Time is not a thing or place. Time travel is an absurdity.

The alternate view (Augustine, C.S. Lewis, etc.) is that God experiences an 'eternal now'/timelessness. There is no explicit text to support this. It is speculative, tainted by pagan philosophy (which could be right, but not in this case, in my mind). The past, present, future are all at once in God's experience. This makes no sense. Music requires sequence to be intelligible. The triune God would need succession to fellowship, love, and communicate in eternity past. God can remember the past perfectly, knows everything about the present, and can project about future possibilities without being in the future.

Project about futre possibilities??? So God is "predicting" or making an educated "guess" as to the futre? No. God knows (not predicts) the end from the beginning.
My background is I am a born again believer. There are some things that may be mutually exclusive, operating within time and yet being also beyond time is not one of them, for God cannot be limited to time which he creates "In the beginning...". He is a personal God, but only by His will.
Personal knowledge of God is found in the Holy Spirit only, and not in theological commentaries. This is knowing Him in Spirit and in truth.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by Hilston
Hilston wrote:
Prior to creation, there was no "process" that bound God's mind or decrees. The logical ordering of God's decrees are completely, uniquely and utterly arbitrary.

I'm saying that God is the only truly free agent. He is not bound by any laws, by any constraints or limitations. When He chooses to order his decrees, he does so, not by necessity, not by constraints of time or sequence, but completely and utterly by fiat. God is the only truly arbitrary mind in existence.

Because He is God!

Right. To elaborate "God intended, and it was so". God is more about 'purpose' than 'plan'; He does not need to 'plan' that which He already knows, intends, and hence creates.

 

[godrulz]

Gen. 1:1 does not prove God created time. Time is not a thing to create. It is an aspect of any personal being's existence (sequence, duration, succession). In the beginning of earth and heaven history God created. The unique MEASURE of time with sun, moon, stars came into being with the universe. This does not mean that sequence and duration have not always been an aspect of the triune God's experience. God loved, fellowshipped, and communicated from eternity past with Father, Son, Spirit. At some point in God's history and sequence, He created all things. Time is not a thing to create. There is a before, during, and after in God's experience of creation (i.e. time).

Rev. 1:8 uses timed tenses about God's reality (past, present, future).

The eternal now view would have us believe that creation, incarnation, and Second Coming are all instantaneous for God. This does not compute. Creation preceded the incarnation by thousands of years. The Second Coming is not a reality yet. God is not in some mystical 4th dimension. The Second Coming is in His mind, but not manifest in reality yet.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Gen. 1:1 does not prove God created time. Time is not a thing to create. It is an aspect of any personal being's existence (sequence, duration, succession). In the beginning of earth and heaven history God created. The unique MEASURE of time with sun, moon, stars came into being with the universe. This does not mean that sequence and duration have not always been an aspect of the triune God's experience. God loved, fellowshipped, and communicated from eternity past with Father, Son, Spirit. At some point in God's history and sequence, He created all things. Time is not a thing to create. There is a before, during, and after in God's experience of creation (i.e. time).

Rev. 1:8 uses timed tenses about God's reality (past, present, future).

The eternal now view would have us believe that creation, incarnation, and Second Coming are all instantaneous for God. This does not compute. Creation preceded the incarnation by thousands of years. The Second Coming is not a reality yet. God is not in some mystical 4th dimension. The Second Coming is in His mind, but not manifest in reality yet.

Wow!! :noway:


You actually said something remarkably sound! I'm amazed!

 

[godrulz]

I am also amazed that you do not appear to subscribe to the traditional 'eternal now' concept that is philosophically tainted, but assumed to be biblical.

Maybe there is hope for me?

Please add your articulations. I would appreciate your ideas and insights on this topic of the eternal God's experience and relation to time and human history.

 

[Sozo]

I would be hard pressed to expound on your eloquent description. I have always said that time is not a created thing (any more than space is). Both are simply terms we use to describe a measure from point a to point b, nothing more.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

I would be hard pressed to expound on your eloquent description. I have always said that time is not a created thing (any more than space is). Both are simply terms we use to describe a measure from point a to point b, nothing more.

People do tend to confuse the various measurements of time with the essential nature of time. God did not measure time with a watch from all eternity. This does not mean that sequence and duration were not real from eternity past.

Time, space, theoretical physics, relativity, philosophy, etc. can become very confusing and abstract. I think the scientists start with wrong assumptions and miss the obvious: time is not space, time is not a thing; time is sequence/duration/succession regardless how we measure it.

God as timeless is not a necessary position. God is eternal in the sense that He experiences an endless duration of time, not that He is timeless/'eternal now'.

 

[Delmar]

I remember when, as a child, around five years of age the hour and a half drive to my grandparents house seemed like an eternity to me! My first year of school was an enormous unfathomable block of time! At 46 the years are flying past. Seems only a few months ago I was watching to see if my computer would work when the clock struck Y2k.
Seems to me that anyone over 40 should understand that when God says " for Me a thousand years is as a day" it is just quite literally the truth!

 

[Frank Ernest]

What makes you think that God's "perception" of time agrees with yours?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

What makes you think that God's "perception" of time agrees with yours?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Do you not believe that God could not describe things in terms that you could understand?
I beliveve that as I get older I am coming to understand that the reality of time is exactly as God described it. I therefore believe my "perception" of time is begining to agree with God's!

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

Gen. 1:1 does not prove God created time. Time is not a thing to create. It is an aspect of any personal being's existence (sequence, duration, succession). In the beginning of earth and heaven history God created. The unique MEASURE of time with sun, moon, stars came into being with the universe. This does not mean that sequence and duration have not always been an aspect of the triune God's experience. God loved, fellowshipped, and communicated from eternity past with Father, Son, Spirit. At some point in God's history and sequence, He created all things. Time is not a thing to create. There is a before, during, and after in God's experience of creation (i.e. time).

Rev. 1:8 uses timed tenses about God's reality (past, present, future).

The eternal now view would have us believe that creation, incarnation, and Second Coming are all instantaneous for God. This does not compute. Creation preceded the incarnation by thousands of years. The Second Coming is not a reality yet. God is not in some mystical 4th dimension. The Second Coming is in His mind, but not manifest in reality yet.

This is incorrect. Of course I would agree that God operates personally in time with man because time is where man is. This cannot be disputed so lets take that off the table.
The two questions that are left are:
*Is an 'eternal now' outside of time (sequential experience) possible? And...
*Is it possible for God to know the futre as if it already occured for Him?

These questions are obviously connected.
For God to know with absolute certainty the exact details of a certain future event which has not yet occured, more than predicting based on knowing all existing evidence and accounting for His Will (for He has to consider the variable of free will and whim in man), there would have to be an existence from which the sequential events of the creation originated as it were at once. There would be no other way to know the future, for one has to account for free choice in man of what we do, and even the words we speak, which creates a variable for God no doubt which is unknowable and subject to change and whim.

When Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the rooster crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."

Could Jesus have been proved wrong? Why or why not?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

People do tend to confuse the various measurements of time with the essential nature of time. God did not measure time with a watch from all eternity. This does not mean that sequence and duration were not real from eternity past.

Time, space, theoretical physics, relativity, philosophy, etc. can become very confusing and abstract. I think the scientists start with wrong assumptions and miss the obvious: time is not space, time is not a thing; time is sequence/duration/succession regardless how we measure it.

God as timeless is not a necessary position. God is eternal in the sense that He experiences an endless duration of time, not that He is timeless/'eternal now'.

So space is a thing?

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

What makes you think that God's "perception" of time agrees with yours?

Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God has created a universe with order and logic consistent with His brilliance.

The context of Is. 55 is related to salvation and God urging reconciliation and offering forgiveness.

It is not a proof text that negates scientific and philosophical truth. The nature of time and eternity are not systematically, scientifically explained in revelation. We do not need to say things are a mystery. We can reason and discover much of God's creation that we may know the Creator better.

However, the simple reading of Scripture is that God and man have histories that intersect. The parting of the Red Sea happened thousands of years ago, not trillions of years ago. God knows reality as it is. He knows the past perfectly in memory, but does not literally experience the past in reality at the same time as the future (absurd, contradictory). He knows the present perfectly. We are limited in our knowledge of the present since we are finite. God is able to know and experience the present in an infinitely greater way than us since He is omnipresent. The future is genuinely open for God and us and is not experienced until the potential future moves through the present and becomes the fixed past. There is no reason to speculate that God is an 'eternal now' (this is from Greek philosophy that assumes God is changeless in every sense; Augustine adopted it and passed it on through church history).

So, God's perception of time is different than ours. Our frame of reference is a few short years, while God's frame is from eternity past. He did not have a beginning. Time limits us because we can only be in one place at one time and do a few things at once. Time does not limit God because He can do and know infinite things at once. This perception difference does not mean that God does not experience sequence/duration/succession=time.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

This is incorrect. Of course I would agree that God operates personally in time with man because time is where man is. This cannot be disputed so lets take that off the table.
The two questions that are left are:
*Is an 'eternal now' outside of time (sequential experience) possible? And...
*Is it possible for God to know the futre as if it already occured for Him?

These questions are obviously connected.
For God to know with absolute certainty the exact details of a certain future event which has not yet occured, more than predicting based on knowing all existing evidence and accounting for His Will (for He has to consider the variable of free will and whim in man), there would have to be an existence from which the sequential events of the creation originated as it were at once. There would be no other way to know the future, for one has to account for free choice in man of what we do, and even the words we speak, which creates a variable for God no doubt which is unknowable and subject to change and whim.

When Jesus said:
"Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the rooster crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice."

Could Jesus have been proved wrong? Why or why not?

The only way for God to know the future as a certainty before it happens is for God to make it happen (determinism, which negates free moral agency). In fact, some of the future is settled and determined by God (creation, incarnation, Second Coming, judgments in Revelation, millennium, etc.). However, the other motif in Scripture is that some of the future is open and only known as a possibility rather than an actuality until the free choices are made.

God knew Peter's heart and circumstances perfectly. He could have orchestrated the crowing of the bird like He had Balaam's donkey talk.

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

So space is a thing?

I suppose not. Things in space are things (molecules, atoms, objects, people, planets, stars, etc.)

"A Treatise of Time and Space" -J.R. Lucas deals with this issue. I agreed with his idea that God is not a timeless being. However, the rest of the stuff was complicated, mathematical, logical and beyond my ability to comprehend.

Matter is things. Matter fills space. Matter is not space?

Can you shed some light? I am not clear on this.

I think you implied space is not a thing and you are probably correct.

 

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

The only way for God to know the future as a certainty before it happens is for God to make it happen (determinism, which negates free moral agency). In fact, some of the future is settled and determined by God (creation, incarnation, Second Coming, judgments in Revelation, millennium, etc.). However, the other motif in Scripture is that some of the future is open and only known as a possibility rather than an actuality until the free choices are made.

Another way for God to know the futre is for God to exist outside of time.

God knew Peter's heart and circumstances perfectly. He could have orchestrated the crowing of the bird like He had Balaam's donkey talk.

Godrulz...is it possible considering free will in man for Peter to have made any other free choices that would have avoided Peter denying Jesus.
Specifically why or why not. Could Jesus have been proved wrong?

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by STONE

Godrulz...is it possible considering free will in man for Peter to have made any other free choices that would have avoided Peter denying Jesus.
Specifically why or why not. Could Jesus have been proved wrong?

Knowing how someone will respond, does not make them respond. Jesus knew exactly what Peter would do. I do not have God's insight into every human heart, yet I know how my kids will respond in nearly every circumstance. Heck, I know how most people here will respond in most circumstances.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Can you shed some light? I am not clear on this.

I think you implied space is not a thing and you are probably correct.

I don't think space can be defined. There is obviously no end to space. Space cannot expand or contract; nor can space be contained. All that we know of space is what science perceives through their study of the universe, which is limited. One thing is for sure, for space to be a thing, it would have to have definable characteristics. It is beyond our imagination. We measure things in what we call space, but not relative to space. It is the same with time. Tryong to understand space and time, is like trying to perceive that there is nothing. It could literally drive you mad :dizzy: (You haven't tried that, have you?) :chuckle:

 

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

Another way for God to know the futre is for God to exist outside of time.

Godrulz...is it possible considering free will in man for Peter to have made any other free choices that would have avoided Peter denying Jesus.
Specifically why or why not. Could Jesus have been proved wrong?

God outside of time...this would still assume the future has already happened like a filmed movie. Time is unidirectional. It is moving from the possible future into the fixed past. The future is simply not there to know. Even if God is 'timeless', the 2009 Superbowl has not been played yet and is not an object of knowledge even for an omniscient God (knows all that is logically knowable...future free will contingencies are not an object of knowledge unless they are predetermined).

The Peter prediction is very proximal to the event. These things were knowable. One cannot argue from this the exhaustive foreknowledge of all future free will choices from trillions of years ago based on this one event.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Sozo

.... Heck, I know how most people here will respond in most circumstances.

So true:thumb: