On Deservedness

[Greg Jennings]

that's the definition we're working with :idunno:

deserve: to earn by one's actions

You're nit-picking. If you believe that a humanitarian missionary in a dangerous country deserves to die or that a child running on a poolside deserves to break his head open, then I'm baffled

 

[Enthusiast]

Same example I gave to Doser: your grandson is running alongside a pool. He runs the risk of slipping, falling, and busting his skull open. Does he deserve that?

He bears responsibility for not being better prepared for a slippery surface.

 

[Greg Jennings]

He bears responsibility for not being better prepared for a slippery surface.

No one is saying he isn't responsible for slipping. It's pretty hard to blame an inanimate object for malicious intent. But you wouldn't tell your child in the hospital after busted head surgery that he deserved the pain and fear, would you?

 

[ok doser]

You're nit-picking. If you believe that a humanitarian missionary in a dangerous country deserves to die or that a child running on a poolside deserves to break his head open, then I'm baffled

to flesh it out further, conceptually, it goes like this:

we earn by our actions (aka: deserve) the consequences of those actions, when we perform those actions knowing of the probable risk of the consequences

 

[patrick jane]

to flesh it out further, conceptually, it goes like this:

we earn by our actions (aka: deserve) the consequences of those actions, when we perform those actions knowing of the probable possible risk of the consequences

I would change the word probable to possible and that word changes the point. Because if we followed that rule, nobody would leave the house.

 

[Greg Jennings]

to flesh it out further, conceptually, it goes like this:

we earn by our actions (aka: deserve) the consequences of those actions, when we perform those actions knowing of the probable risk of the consequences

So I'm to understand that you do think a humanitarian in a dangerous country deserves to be murdered?

 

[ok doser]

So I'm to understand that you do think a humanitarian in a dangerous country deserves to be murdered?

if that humanitarian's actions meet the criteria laid out, yes

you do realize that most humanitarian missions are performed with an eye toward minimizing risk to the humanitarians, yes?

 

[Enthusiast]

No one is saying he isn't responsible for slipping. It's pretty hard to blame an inanimate object for malicious intent. But you wouldn't tell your child in the hospital after busted head surgery that he deserved the pain and fear, would you?

As long as he understands his own responsibility.

 

[glorydaz]

Same example I gave to Doser: your grandson is running alongside a pool. He runs the risk of slipping, falling, and busting his skull open. Does he deserve that?

Deserve relates to rewards for good or bad behavior. Accidents that are a result of innocent behavior rather than good or bad behavior are unearned therefore undeserved.

So I would say it depends. I was a lifeguard for many years....telling kids not to run was one of my main jobs. If the kid falls after being told not to run, then he certainly deserves whatever he gets. He learns to obey or pay...

If he was too young to know or had never been told, then he could still suffer consequences for his actions, but I wouldn't say he deserved or earned them. He was innocent. It's like women who get raped and have done nothing wrong. I certainly wouldn't say they deserved what they got.

Well there's a pretty big difference between your example and the slutty rape victim example: in yours, you are committing a crime at the owner's expense, and you are in the wrong. In the rape victim's, her rapist is committing a crime at her expense, and he is in the wrong.

So you think something has to be illegal in order to be wrong? I don't. There is no doubt the rapist was wrong, nor should there be any doubt that what the stripper was doing is wrong. They each are responsible for their own wrong behavior. They both deserve whatever they get for their bad behavior. The consequences for both are earned and therefore deserved.

 

[glorydaz]

No one is saying he isn't responsible for slipping. It's pretty hard to blame an inanimate object for malicious intent. But you wouldn't tell your child in the hospital after busted head surgery that he deserved the pain and fear, would you?

I would certainly use it as a perfect way to tell him why he needs to be careful and pay attention to the rules....truth be told, I'm betting he would have figured that one out for himself. Most people don't try to blame the floor when they fall down. They know they shouldn't have been doing thus and so. There is nothing quite like pain for teaching lessons. We stub our toe and learn not to run barefooted up the cement steps....for example. Rarely will you hear someone say, "I didn't deserve that." We know when we deserve something. It's simple common sense.

 

[Greg Jennings]

if that humanitarian's actions meet the criteria laid out, yes

you do realize that most humanitarian missions are performed with an eye toward minimizing risk to the humanitarians, yes?

Well of course. But in certain countries the risk can only be minimized so much. And those happen to be the countries that need the most help, and where humanitarian efforts would be most useful

 

[glorydaz]

Maybe he's earned it, but he certainly doesn't deserve it. Just like a humanitarian on a Christian mission to a dangerous part of Africa doesn't deserve to be kidnapped and murdered. She's aware of the risks, but chooses to go anyway. And that doesn't make her deserving of her unfortunate fate

She earned and is well deserving of her "unfortunate fate" for which she will be highly rewarded when she stands before the judgment seat of Christ. I'm sure she will be very pleased with her martyr's crown. That which may seem so horrible to us here on earth may actually be, and always is for believers, turned to our good.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.​

 

[Greg Jennings]

Deserve relates to rewards for good or bad behavior. Accidents that are a result of innocent behavior rather than good or bad behavior are unearned therefore undeserved.

So I would say it depends. I was a lifeguard for many years....telling kids not to run was one of my main jobs. If the kid falls after being told not to run, then he certainly deserves whatever he gets. He learns to obey or pay...

If he was too young to know or had never been told, then he could still suffer consequences for his actions, but I wouldn't say he deserved or earned them. He was innocent. It's like women who get raped and have done nothing wrong. I certainly wouldn't say they deserved what they got.

Well it seems we have a fundamental difference in our ideas of what deserved behavior is.

So you think something has to be illegal in order to be wrong? I don't.

No, that wasn't the point. I was pointing out how ill-fitting your example of robbing a bank was (you are the aggressor) compared to the rape example (the rapist is the aggressor)

There is no doubt the rapist was wrong, nor should there be any doubt that what the stripper was doing is wrong. They each are responsible for their own wrong behavior. They both deserve whatever they get for their bad behavior. The consequences for both are earned and therefore deserved.

Well, now that you brought up strippers I couldn't disagree any more. That's a legitimate profession, whether you approve of it or not. An employee of a strip club has it in her job description to "dance" and keep men company, and does so with the understanding that she will be kept safe by any bouncers hired by the club. Does her job mean she is more vulnerable to situations where a rape could occur than the average person? Yes. But she should never encounter that situation if the club holds up their end of the bargain

 

[ClimateSanity]

Then you must think God arranges tornadoes, fatal car crashes, earthquakes and cancer as just deserts, c'mon gd, you know better.

How did you make the fantastic leap allow to arrange? Was that on purpose? If so, that is dirty debating.

 

[Greg Jennings]

She earned and is well deserving of her "unfortunate fate" for which she will be highly rewarded when she stands before the judgment seat of Christ. I'm sure she will be very pleased with her martyr's crown. That which may seem so horrible to us here on earth may actually be, and always is for believers, turned to our good.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.​

And here we have the problem: you're judging everyone by your own personal code of holy conduct. A code that just doesn't match the world we live in today. And why should it? It's over 2000 years old. In the developed world, we're a much more peaceful and humane society than used to exist. Perhaps you need to change your ideals to fit the changing world around you, instead of demanding that it stop changing and stay static

 

[glorydaz]

And here we have the problem: you're judging everyone by your own personal code of holy conduct. A code that just doesn't match the world we live in today. And why should it? It's over 2000 years old. In the developed world, we're a much more peaceful and humane society than used to exist. Perhaps you need to change your ideals to fit the changing world around you, instead of demanding that it stop changing and stay static

I'm not demanding anything. I'm simply stating that, according to God, people reap what they sow in this world. I can see that you're a humanist who lives in a world of your own imagination....where we are "more peaceful and humane" than ever. You're correct that the "code" I follow is not that of this world we live in, but it's not MY code. It's the "code" of the ONE TRUE GOD, and, therefore, I have no need to change anything.

 

[glorydaz]

How did you make the fantastic leap allow to arrange? Was that on purpose? If so, that is dirty debating.

That's the way pj plays with the truth. He can say he works for law enforcement when he doesn't....leading someone to think he's a cop...when he isn't, but won't take any blame when they think he meant what he didn't.

 

[patrick jane]

That's the way pj plays with the truth. He can say he works for law enforcement when he doesn't....leading someone to think he's a cop...when he isn't, but won't take any blame when they think he meant what he didn't.

I'm a lawyer and a movie star

 

[glorydaz]

Well it seems we have a fundamental difference in our ideas of what deserved behavior is.

Of course we do...you're a humanist. I'm not.

No, that wasn't the point. I was pointing out how ill-fitting your example of robbing a bank was (you are the aggressor) compared to the rape example (the rapist is the aggressor)

At the time we were talking about unintended consequences, weren't we?

Well, now that you brought up strippers I couldn't disagree any more. That's a legitimate profession, whether you approve of it or not. An employee of a strip club has it in her job description to "dance" and keep men company, and does so with the understanding that she will be kept safe by any bouncers hired by the club. Does her job mean she is more vulnerable to situations where a rape could occur than the average person? Yes. But she should never encounter that situation if the club holds up their end of the bargain

Originally, I was talking about a stripper at a frat party. But, that has nothing to with the fact that bad behavior can, and often does, carry bad consequences.

Bargain? Like a deal with the devil? lain:

 

[patrick jane]

frat party, yeah right