On Deservedness

[glorydaz]

What scenario do you have in mind for Example 2? :AMR:

It was an actual life situation I remember reading about earlier in the thread that was linked to. Sorry can't remember exactly where.

So...a girl invites a guy into her bed, for whatever reason. She doesn't want to have sex. He forces it. And you think she should only get half protection?

Look out Desert Reign....the PC tyrants will jump on your every word and grill you half to death trying to get you to say something they can turn into something it's not. :chew:

 

[ok doser]

So...a girl invites a guy into her bed, for whatever reason.

:freak:


how old are you?

 

[Desert Reign]

So...a girl invites a guy into her bed, for whatever reason. She doesn't want to have sex. He forces it. And you think she should only get half protection?

Yep.

You are driving in a safari park. You have been told to keep the windows and doors locked. On your way round, you see some lions in the distance and you get out of your car to take a great photo. You get mauled by three lions and are only saved because of the quick thinking of the driver of the car. You lose both your legs below the knee. This is all the fault of:

The lions.

Right?

 

[glorydaz]

Yep.

You are driving in a safari park. You have been told to keep the windows and doors locked. On your way round, you see some lions in the distance and you get out of your car to take a great photo. You get mauled by three lions and are only saved because of the quick thinking of the driver of the car. You lose both your legs below the knee. This is all the fault of:

The lions.

Right?

You may be just the man for this job, DR. :thumb:

 

[ok doser]

Yep.

You are driving in a safari park. You have been told to keep the windows and doors locked. On your way round, you see some lions in the distance and you get out of your car to take a great photo. You get mauled by three lions and are only saved because of the quick thinking of the driver of the car. You lose both your legs below the knee. This is all the fault of:

The lions.

Right?

only if they were male lions

if they were female lions, they bear no responsibility for their behavior :carryon:

 

[bybee]

Yep.

You are driving in a safari park. You have been told to keep the windows and doors locked. On your way round, you see some lions in the distance and you get out of your car to take a great photo. You get mauled by three lions and are only saved because of the quick thinking of the driver of the car. You lose both your legs below the knee. This is all the fault of:

The lions.

Right?

A lion is an animal doing what comes naturally. Are you then comparing a rapist as a man doing what comes naturally?

 

[glorydaz]

only if they were male lions

if they were female lions, they bear no responsibility for their behavior :carryon:

:rotfl:

 

[glorydaz]

A lion is an animal doing what comes naturally. Are you then comparing a rapist as a man doing what comes naturally?

An ungodly man of this world......there are those, ya know? In fact, it's them we're talking about.

 

[kmoney]

Yep.

You are driving in a safari park. You have been told to keep the windows and doors locked. On your way round, you see some lions in the distance and you get out of your car to take a great photo. You get mauled by three lions and are only saved because of the quick thinking of the driver of the car. You lose both your legs below the knee. This is all the fault of:

The lions.

Right?

Invalid. Men aren't lions.

The man in your scenario Should still get full punishment.

 

[Desert Reign]

Thank you for your clear statement of views. I hope mine are equally clear.

I would like to jump in here, just in case Rusha brings up the "women deserve rape" issue in her rebuttal. I am the ONLY one I have seen on here to say there are some women who do deserve to be raped.

OK, noted. See on.

....if they were indeed raped because of their "slutty behavior".

Women are not raped because of their (when such is the case) slutty behaviour. They are raped because of the animalistic attitudes of the men watching them. When I see slutty women I have no desire to rape them or have sex with them but I can well imagine that some men would feel that they were easy meat. I can also imagine that some men would think that the woman wanted to have sex. In all the cases, the man's reaction to the woman is not the inevitable consequence of the woman's behaviour. Therefore it is illogical to suggest that she deserved anything.

I say it because I firmly believe we all get what we deserve (whatever it is that God allows to come upon us -rape included).

I really have fundamental problems with this. I have had cancer twice and am severely disabled as a result. Asking about what we deserve is quite the wrong question. I would not be alive if I for one moment thought that I deserved the suffering I have been through. Or indeed if I had also thought that I did not deserve it. If at any point I had succumbed to the thought that there was something wrong with me morally or that I had made morally bad decisions or that I was a victim of circumstances or of God's arbitrariness or such like, then I am sure I would have died of depression and lack of purpose. Many did. I am a relatively rare survivor of the kind of cancer I have had. Most sufferers don't even get the option of an operation. (At least not in my country. In the USA, most sufferers are operated on as standard but the vast majority of them do not survive because they don't have the mental attitude for it. The operation will be a nominal success but within months the patient has died of some peripheral issue that hinged on his own attitude to himself. He is basically incapable of living with the disability. It is like hell on earth for him. This is why in my country they are not usually given the option of this operation for it is deemed to be much more humane to let the person die naturally from his cancer than to put him through the traumas of the operation and its consequences.) I was given one because I had an attitude of survival, strong faith, a praying family, a supportive church, etc. Life is not about what we deserve and what we don't deserve. The person who believes this will be forever a slave and will never be in control of his environment or taste the beauty of the world.

I've also said rape can be a light punishment

Does everything that happens to you have to be a punishment? I really have deep problems with this.

when compared to torture and death....which can also come from bad behavior. That in no way comes remotely close to saying all rape victims are guilty of bad behavior or that their behavior led to their being raped.

Torture is the same here as rape: no matter what you have done, you don't deserve it.

I see no reason to exclude rape as a natural consequence of our bad behavior. And that seems to be what everyone is doing.

It depends on what you mean by 'consequence'. You can have direct and indirect consequences. A direct consequence is basically the result of something. An indirect consequence is something that was caused by something else but which would not have happened if your action did not take place. For example, if you go to the beach for a family day out and your son drowns. Your son's death was caused by a drowning accident, not by your choosing to go to the beach. But going to the beach was an indirect cause of the death because if you had not gone, it would not have happened.

When we do something wrong....we deserve whatever we get. We do not deserve mercy even though it is often given.

The difficulty you will have over this is that you can't know whether you did something wrong until after the event. Because generally right and wrong are understood in terms of their consequences. All we can say in this case is that the slutty woman took risks that she needn't have taken. Taking risks is not a sin. It is just the choices she makes. You may say 'I disagree with her lifestyle', but that doesn't make her morally guilty of anything.

I say this so you know before the false accusations begin.

I certainly will stand by what I know to be true. For man to claim we do NOT deserve punishment for our bad behavior is wrong.

Again, it is not punishment that I am after. All I am saying is that if a woman places herself in obvious danger which she should know invites a man to have sex with her or if she steps out into a safari park where she knows the lions are hungry, they will think she is meat for them. In the case of lions we don't blame them because they don't have moral values in the same way we do. In the case of a man, we blame him because he should know that rape is wrong in every circumstance. But we don't blame him quite as much if we learn that the woman put herself in such a position as to be extremely tempting to his animal instincts. At best we can say 'She didn't deserve to be raped but she also didn't deserve not to be raped.' Going to the beach is fine. Your son drowns and you are heartbroken but you think of it as an accident and eventually get over it or you think of it as a punishment sent upon you and you never get over it. But if you go to the beach and you know it has a reputation for dangerous currents or sharks and you still go, then you can't say 'I don't deserve this' even though you don't deserve it.

And it is not our choice about what that punishment might be. We should thank the Lord when we do not have to pay the ultimate price for our wrong doing....death in this life to say nothing of the next which is another issue altogether.

But if the Christian faith is that God does the judging, then surely it is not our decision to claim that people are being punished for whatever actions they do? We should not judge.

 

[kmoney]

Look out Desert Reign....the PC tyrants will jump on your every word and grill you half to death trying to get you to say something they can turn into something it's not. :chew:

Is that what I've done?

 

[Rusha]

A lion is an animal doing what comes naturally. Are you then comparing a rapist as a man doing what comes naturally?

I would compare rapists to rabid dogs ...

 

[Desert Reign]

A lion is an animal doing what comes naturally. Are you then comparing a rapist as a man doing what comes naturally?

The desire to have sex with the opposite sex is a natural instinct the last time I looked. The question was who is at fault? The lions, right? What is your answer?

Invalid. Men aren't lions.

The man in your scenario Should still get full punishment.

I was drawing an analogy, as well you know. You didn't answer the question. I know that men are not lions, otherwise it would not be an analogy would it???

So answer the question!

 

[ok doser]

good luck - been down this path my self

 

[patrick jane]

good luck - been down this path my self

you hussy hefer :devil:

 

[patrick jane]

It's interesting, DR, that so many false accusations have flown around concerning how we are heartless because we have made the proclamation that people are responsible for their own actions. Recognizing a person's fault has nothing to do with how we treat victims, whether they are completely innocent or whether they contributed to their own victimhood in some way. The fact that we cannot have a discussion without personal attacks says more about the people involved in this discussion than whatever claims they might make concerning how caring they are and how evil the rest of us are.

Becoming so emotionally invested that this "great love" for victims is completely overshadowed by a mean spiritedness that is as far from LOVE as I've ever seen. In other words....don't believe half of what you hear on these threads. Claims have been made that are nothing more than figments of some overactive imaginations.

I know the feeling.

 

[kmoney]

The desire to have sex with the opposite sex is a natural instinct the last time I looked. The question was who is at fault? The lions, right? What is your answer?



I was drawing an analogy, as well you know. You didn't answer the question. I know that men are not lions, otherwise it would not be an analogy would it???

So answer the question!

If any fault is assigned it is the victim's. They are the only candidate.

 

[Desert Reign]

If any fault is assigned it is the victim's. They are the only candidate.

Thank you.
Now all you have to do is to stretch your imagination a little further and give the lions a wee bit more moral choice mentality such that you are able to say truly that the lions knew they were not allowed to attack and eat human beings but they did it anyway because normally human beings are in cars but this one was outside offering itself up as food. Does that fact in any way detract from your above statement assigning fault to the victim? Does the fact that the lions knew this change the responsibility of the victim, does this fact competely exonerate him?

 

[ClimateSanity]

A lion is an animal doing what comes naturally. Are you then comparing a rapist as a man doing what comes naturally?

It is a mans nature to copulate. He controls himself because of empathy and loyalty to marriage. Marriage was instituted to keep this animal urge under control.

 

[kmoney]

Thank you.
Now all you have to do is to stretch your imagination a little further and give the lions a wee bit more moral choice mentality such that you are able to say truly that the lions knew they were not allowed to attack and eat human beings but they did it anyway because normally human beings are in cars but this one was outside offering itself up as food. Does that fact in any way detract from your above statement assigning fault to the victim? Does the fact that the lions knew this change the responsibility of the victim, does this fact competely exonerate him?

Yes, it does detract. If lions have morality and know they shouldn't attack the person then it's on them if they do. They can't say, "but he was standing out in the open! But he looked to tasty! But he made it so easy!" And if there is a law against lions attacking people then they should still face the full punishment.