No Longer A Christian

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Balder

Are you sure you're talking about God here and not some demon?

It's the demons that God will destroy, and smothers is filled with them.

 

[smothers]

Originally posted by Sozo

I think you are a virus on society, and really not even worth the effort of this post.

A virus on society? Really? How so?

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Are you justifying the slaughter of Muslims because they happen to read a different holy book?

I said no such thing. And I don't believe that either. Did you miss the last part of my post?

Your inability to call the atrocities of the church what they are--just that, atrocities--is appalling.

They were more than atrocities. They were abominations, and a great misuse of God's name. They are what is appaling.

American Indians, Aztecs, virtually any native people Christian nations contacted, have been wiped out.

Which is one of the many reasons I reject the idea of religion. I am a Christisn, because I am in Christ. Not because of what doctrine I hold to.

The Inquisition and Crusades murdered millions. This is your church, Lighthouse.

No it's not.

This is your faith.

No, it's not.

Christianity has inflicted misery and suffering on every single continent on this planet.

Christianity, or "Christianity?"

Originally posted by Zakath

Your ignorance is only exceeded by your naivetè.


'For your brethren who live in the east are in urgent need of your help, and you must hasten to give them the aid which has often been promised them. For, as most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and conquered the territory of Romania as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont. They have occupied more and more lands of those Christians and have overcome them in seven battles ...

On this account I, or rather the Lord, beseech you as Christ's heralds to publish this everywhere and to persuade all people of whatever rank, foot-soldiers and knights, poor and rich, to carry aid promptly to those Christians and to destroy that vile race from the lands of our friends.
-From a sermon of Pope Urban I calling for the first Crusade

I suspected as much. I am not surprised that they claimed God called for it. It was a misuse of His name, to be sure. those who are free from sin do not desire to commit works of transgression against the law. The Inquisition and Crusades were works of transgression against the third commandment, and being such were also works of transgression against the sixth. But are we surprised that the catholic church did such things? We shouldn't be.

The Muslims worship the deity of the Bible. To them, the word they use means exactly the same as the Christian word "God" or the Hebrew Yahweh, i.e. the supreme being. No more, no less.

No, it doesn't. It merely demonstrates you don't know what you're talking about.

They do it in the name of a false God. Whether they believe it to be the God of the OT or not doesn't change that. They deny Christ. Bottom line.

Hence Jesus' apparently appropriate description of his disciples as sheep - livestock fit for slaughter and fleecing, from the deity's perspective...

More like those who follow the Shepherd. Those the Shpeherd leads to green pastures and beside still waters...

Oh, why not?

Because, He has decided that it will be taken care of once and for all at an appointed time. But the cross has rent the veil in twain, and everyone has access to Christ if they will but come. No longer any need to wipe out the wicked, they will be wiped out as they refuse Christ to the end. Because of the cross, the mission now is to eradicate the wickedness, by leading the wicked to freedom in Christ, and thereby to repentance from their wickedness. And those who deny to the end will be dealt with all at once.

Originally posted by granite1010

Here's a couple possible answers Lighthouse could trot out...

"Well, that was THEN. This is NOW. These people were misguided and misled."

As to the last part, they were. They misused the name of the Lord; i.e., they used His name in vain.

So what? They thought they had God on their side. They thought they were doing God's work. This kind of reasoning is alive and well today.

And they were horribly wrong. The Catholics buy into the lie that the Pope has the authority to speak for God, when he has no such authority because he has no relationship wiht the Lord, or he wouldn't be Catholic in the first place.

Or: "It was a CATHOLIC thing."

Well, they were...but that's beside the point.

Sure was. On the other hand, Luther was an anti-semitic maniac,

Who said I was a follower of Luther? I do agree with him on some things, mostly that the Catholic church is a lie. But why he never realized the anti-semitism in the RCC was complete rubbish is beyond me.

Calvin oppressed Geneva and had Servetus burned alive,

Am I a Calvinist? No! I am a Christian!

and the Puritans hanged and crushed their opponents.

I'm certainly not a Puritan.

So passing the buck to the papists just because they had the means and brass to carry out the Crusades and Inquisition doesn't fly.

:duh::dizzy:

The church did it. And pointing fingers at Catholics is just more proof that Christianity can't agree on a thing.

It is the "churches" who can't agree on anything. But the Church [the Body of christ] is in full agreement on the truth. I am not part of the "churches" even though I attend a "church." I do not hold to all the doctrines of any church I have ever attended. But I preach the truth of the Lord God.

On the other hand, Lighthouse might come up with something completely different...:think:

I think you're just lost because you though that I'd be like the pansy "christian" who doesn't like the OT and all the killings the Jews did by God's command. And I surprised you by not shying away from God's righteousness. It is to His glory that the wicked are destroyed. And I will revel in His glory always!

Originally posted by firechyld[/i]

lighthouse

The name they refer to God by? It's the Arabic word for "God", you dimwit.

The name "Allah" was the name of a moon God in some religion, back when Mohammed decided that it was the name of God. Whether or not that is now the Arabic word for God doesn't change that Muslims worship a false God. I used to believe it was just the Arabic word for "God", too. I was wrong, and so are you.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

So you know when other people are/aren't?

The fact is, if somebody claims to be a Christian, that should be good enough. Trinitarian, inerrant scripture, the whole nine. Now, whether what they DO or not reflects their so-called faith is something else altogether. Actions speak for themselves.

 

[Granite]

"It is the 'churches' who can't agree on anything. But the Church [the Body of christ] is in full agreement on the truth. I am not part of the 'churches' even though I attend a 'church.' I do not hold to all the doctrines of any church I have ever attended. But I preach the truth of the Lord God."

The churches constitute the body of Christ. And Christians can't agree on more than five points of doctrine (if that) before they start arguing. The Christian church has never been in "full agreement."

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by granite1010

The fact is, if somebody claims to be a Christian, that should be good enough. Trinitarian, inerrant scripture, the whole nine. Now, whether what they DO or not reflects their so-called faith is something else altogether. Actions speak for themselves.

You used the words "fact" and "should be" in the same sentence. Dolt.

The REAL FACT is, only God knows who is and who isn't. Get over it (the most over-used phrase on TOL).

 

[Lighthouse]

granite-
You are showing more and more that you never even had a clue as to what it means to be in Christ, let alone your sorry state now.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

granite-
You are showing more and more that you never even had a clue as to what it means to be in Christ, let alone your sorry state now.

This coming from a guy who doesn't have a clue about his own faith or Christianity's history. Gimme a break. My state is anything but sorry. I'm not the one running around and trying to tear down those I disagree with. You are.

If that's the fruit of the spirit, you can keep it.

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by granite1010
If that's the fruit of the spirit, you can keep it.

granite1010,

For the sake of argument, I will accept your claim that you were once a follower of Jesus Christ. It should then come as no surprise to you that those of us who continue to call ourselves Christian are not perfect. This is not the place to look for fruit of the spirit. Oh, you might find some fruit here, but I can think of a million better places to look.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by On Fire

granite1010,

For the sake of argument, I will accept your claim that you were once a follower of Jesus Christ. It should then come as no surprise to you that those of us who continue to call ourselves Christian are not perfect. This is not the place to look for fruit of the spirit. Oh, you might find some fruit here, but I can think of a million better places to look.

Don't worry man, I don't expect or look for perfection at TOL. And I appreciate the benefit of the doubt--more than most people here have given.

 

[Zakath]

So lighthouse, in his vast experience, claims we should not expect to find "fruits of the spirit" exhibited here on TOL...

If one cannot find "fruits of the spirit" among such august company as those here on TOL, then where might one find such evidence of the deity's existence? :think:


IIRC, Jesus had a bad reaction to a fruitless tree in the gospels didn't he?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by granite1010 Calvin oppressed Geneva and had Servetus burned alive.

Calvin risked his own life by going to France to meet Servetus. He tried to convert him to Christianity, and warned him to stay out of Geneva. (In Catholic France Calvin would have been executed as a heretic himself if he had been caught.)

Servetus did not heed the warning of Calvin and he went to Geneva anyway. Servetus was arrested and condemned by the state council as a heretic, according to the law of Geneva. Calvin pleaded with the members of the council saying that if Servetus was going to have to be put to death, he should be beheaded and not burned, since burning was too cruel. (Calvin was only a witness, not the judge). Servetus was burned at the stake nonetheless. But not because of Calvin.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Calvin risked his own life by going to France to meet Servetus. He tried to convert him to Christianity, and warned him to stay out of Geneva. (In Catholic France Calvin would have been executed as a heretic himself if he had been caught.)

Servetus did not heed the warning of Calvin and he went to Geneva anyway. Servetus was arrested and condemned by the state council as a heretic, according to the law of Geneva. Calvin pleaded with the members of the council saying that if Servetus was going to have to be put to death, he should be beheaded and not burned, since burning was too cruel. (Calvin was only a witness, not the judge). Servetus was burned at the stake nonetheless. But not because of Calvin.

The law of Geneva had no penalties for blasphemy: however the civil council convicted Servetus of blasphemy, an enforcement of a biblical (Mosaic) crime. In this they overstepped their boundaries. Without the intolerance of Calvin that permeated Geneva, Michael Servetus--who was at least an intellectual equal with the Reformer, a man of science, and exceptionally (and fatally) bold--would not have been executed.

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

So lighthouse, in his vast experience, claims we should not expect to find "fruits of the spirit" exhibited here on TOL...

No. It was me. Do try to keep up.

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath
If one cannot find "fruits of the spirit" among such august company as those here on TOL, then where might one find such evidence of the deity's existence? :think:

In your own backyard, dufus. :doh:

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

This coming from a guy who doesn't have a clue about his own faith or Christianity's history. Gimme a break. My state is anything but sorry. I'm not the one running around and trying to tear down those I disagree with. You are.

If that's the fruit of the spirit, you can keep it.

I don't care about the history of those who want to call themselves by Christ's name. I care about Christ. But you still don't understand that, do you? I am not here to tear you down. And I did not set out to do such a thing. If you are feeling torn down in any way, then it's because you are receiving the truth as a put down. What does that say about you?

The fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness and self control. And I definitely have more of that than I did apart form Christ. The truth of the matter is that I love you granite. And I don't want to see you wlak away from Christ just because of the idiocy of people who are long dead. So I reach out to you, and attempt to explain the difference between going to church [believing a set doctrine] and a relationship with the living Lord. But you never seem to get it. That pains me. And I just feel that maybe I am not the one who's going to get through to you, and that I should give up. I only pray that God does get through, because I know He'll never give up.

 

[Granite]

"I don't care about the history of those who want to call themselves by Christ's name. I care about Christ."

You're not the first Christian I've encountered who doesn't like to hear about the history of his faith, but, there it is. You've got a bloody faith, Lighthouse. Christianity has blood on its hands everywhere it's gone. Was ever single soldier, missionary, and bearer of the Word of God misguided? Mistaken? Not "really" a Christian? In that case you have hundreds of years of fakes running around, spreading the kingdom.

"The fruit of the Spirit is: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness and self control."

It's supposed to be, anyway. Unfortunately American fundamentalism is anything but loving, joyful, or peaceful. The norm seems to be paranoia, intolerance, and vitriol.

"And I don't want to see you wlak away from Christ just because of the idiocy of people who are long dead."

Fact is, I don't want you necessarily clinging to the long dead, either.

 

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

You've got a bloody faith, Lighthouse. Christianity has blood on its hands everywhere it's gone.

Maybe you're right...

 

[Granite]

Not what I was referring to, but whatever.

 

[wickwoman]

That is a good example of its bloodiness. This is where I'm supposed to remember how wonderful God is for torturing Jesus for me, but it only makes me cringe and run away. It's a mixed message of sorts. "I love you." See, I tortured Jesus for you. It reminds me of the 80s movie Fatal Attraction when she boiled a pet rabbit to "show her love." Michael Douglas didn't seem to get it either.