No Longer A Christian

[wickwoman]

From Karma In the Bible:

Originally posted by elohiym
Actually, he had to die to FREE you from sin and death, and any works program that even remotely resembles karma. I can prove that to you, and it is very logical. Also, keep in mind HE DIDN'T DIE. He is alive right now.

Just as you can be an example and much more. In fact, I can show you where YOU appear in the OT scriptures, just like Jesus. Can you do that with any of the Eastern texts, find yourself mentioned in them individually?

We can do a hell study, if you like. I know this confuses people, but it's easy to clear up. The OT teaches annihilation ONLY, so the problem verses are going to be in the NT; but like I said, easy to clear up.

Originally posted by wickwoman
I’m open to it, amazingly so. Must be the planets or something but anyone on the board will tell you I’ve not been receptive to this kind of talk ever so you must be doing something right.

Originally posted by elohiym
On second thought, I really don't have time to do any studies with you, and I need to end our discussion. Thanks for the exchange.

 

[Ecumenicist]

"Oh, please. My life is "falling apart" (or, as I see it, in transition) because my wife had an affair with the son of a church elder, who subsequently quashed the situation, fired my uncle from the church's parochial school, and ostracized my family. I'd already been doing reading on the implausibility of most Old Testament accounts, the paucity of any evidence for much of the Davidic kingdom, and was taking a very hard look at Christianity's track record of genocide, suppression, and blindness. The situation with my church just about clinched what was already on my mind. "

My heart goes out to you. I had a hard time myself, familially, earlier
this year. Were it not for my faith, I don't know how I would have
made it through it, in fact I am still going through it.

take care,

Dave

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

"Oh, please. My life is "falling apart" (or, as I see it, in transition) because my wife had an affair with the son of a church elder, who subsequently quashed the situation, fired my uncle from the church's parochial school, and ostracized my family. I'd already been doing reading on the implausibility of most Old Testament accounts, the paucity of any evidence for much of the Davidic kingdom, and was taking a very hard look at Christianity's track record of genocide, suppression, and blindness. The situation with my church just about clinched what was already on my mind. "

My heart goes out to you. I had a hard time myself, familially, earlier
this year. Were it not for my faith, I don't know how I would have
made it through it, in fact I am still going through it.

take care,

Dave

Thanks Dave. Same here--still working through things.

 

[Delmar]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Possibly because I didn't like having my arm twisted.

Possibly because I didn't believe he existed.

Possibly because I believed he had another name.

Possibly because I had an aversion to loving someone I've never seen nor spoken to.

Possibly because it doesn't look likes he's loving me if he's sending me to eternal torment.

free will is just an open door with an option to leave.

 

[Flipper]

Granite; congrats on your self-liberation. As everyone else got to throw in their two cents, here's mine: For no good reason other than intuition, I vaguely suspect you'll end up a Buddhist or a Taoist or something. Good luck wherever your studies lead you.

If it weren't for your personal strife, this thread would have amused me. Long experience led me to suspect that our dogmatic Christian buddies wouldn't be able to salvage an errant sheep, but I am surprised by how horribly incompetent some of them are at it.

Eloyihm:

Look, you don't know what you're talking about. Face it. That is why your life is falling apart.

What an obnoxious thing to say. I trust that, as will inevitably happen, hard rain falls in your life you'll remember saying that and regret you were ever such a jerk.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Flipper
Long experience led me to suspect that our dogmatic Christian buddies wouldn't be able to salvage an errant sheep, but I am surprised by how horribly incompetent some of them are at it.

LOL... you actually think Granite was a Christian??????

Dude.... you are more ignorant than once suspected. :doh:

 

[Flipper]

Yeah, I've noticed that approach a lot too. I don't presume to say who constitutes a Christian and who doesn't. No, I leave that to the dogmatists to whom anyone who allows their doubts to overwhelm them was clearly never a Christian in the first place.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Flipper

Yeah, I've noticed that approach a lot too. I don't presume to say who constitutes a Christian and who doesn't. No, I leave that to the dogmatists to whom anyone who allows their doubts to overwhelm them was clearly never a Christian in the first place.

Good for you.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Flipper

What an obnoxious thing to say. I trust that, as will inevitably happen, hard rain falls in your life you'll remember saying that and regret you were ever such a jerk.

Thanks for cursing me, but unfortunately it is now you who are cursed. Deal with that.

I guess you missed the obnoxious things Granite said. You are a preferrer of people, Flip. Bad karma, dude.

And if you don't think his life is falling apart, you are dumb and blind. And if you think he needs pats on the back for rejecting eternal life, then you must hate him a bunch.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by wickwoman

What is sad is that I rarely engage people such as yourself, and the one time I took one of you seriously you disappointed me.

Why did you take me seriously? How did I disappoint you other than ending our dialogue, and what can you know about me simply because I ended a dialogue that you were interested in to that point?

 

[firechyld]

Dave Miller

Except for the "burn for eternity" part, sounds right to me.
I think that's a metaphore for seperation from God, redeemable
until the last judgement. At that time, those of us who still reject
God are simply put out of our misery, for that is the only
humane thing to do for someone who chooses misery in
seperation from God.

How very Jewish of you.

Christians can always explain why the nature of God changed between Judaism and Christianity, but none have yet been able to give me a decent explanation for why the nature of Hell and of Satan changed between the two religions. The Christian vision of "Hell" has little to do with traditional Jewish beliefs.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by granite1010

"I have no idea what problems are created by the 'population explosion' you elude to."

Then I suggest you a) do some reading, and b) then do the math. The population of the Hebrew community exceeded that of Egypt itself. And in a space of maybe 400 years. With a very, very small initial population.

Ah, now I have an idea of what you are eluding to. And that is significant in light of archeological evidence of Joseph and the famine and the exodus? Are you saying that some reading and a little math should cancel out the evidence I have seen and read about?

Originally posted by granite1010

"I personally have friends that have been diving at the site. Chariot wheels remains have been found at the site by Biblical archeologist Ron Wyatt."

Oh, dear God. RON WYATT. You have got to be kidding me. The same guy who found the blood of Christ and proved with DNA that Jesus was virgin born? That's what I thought. Wyatt's the Erick von Daniken of the Christian community: very entertaining and absolutely, irrevocably, koo-koo for cocoa puffs.

Are you saying that Ron Wyatt did not find the actual Mt. Horeb, and that Larry Williams and Bob Cornuke did not visit the same site at a later date, taking out video and photos? You can forget Ron Wyatt if you like. That site has been witnessed and documented, and it is currently under the protection of the Saudi government as an archeological site. Also, satelite pictures don't tend to lie when it comes to a melted granite mountain top.

As far as Ron's claim regarding the blood of Jesus, why would that matter if the real Mount Sinai was seen and filmed by others?

Originally posted by granite1010

"Not true. First, in an Egyptian tomb of a wealthy non-Hebrew woman is inscribed that she sent her servant to trade with Joseph for food during the famine. He wasn't interested in her jewelery. And there is more extra-biblical evidence of Joseph and the famine than that."

If so, you better demonstrate it.

Why? A few paragraphs down, you're going to tell me you don't want my help.

Just read the book The Signature of God as I recommended earlier in this tread. You can find the exact reference there, along with quite a number of other facts you will not be able to turn your back on.

And lucky for you, Ron Wyatt isn't mentioned in that book.

Originally posted by granite1010

"Like in one of our early dialogues in the Back Alley where you insisted I didn't know what I was talking about because I wasn't a Hebrew scholar? I guess you do reap what you sow."

Well, you probably don't. You just admitted as much above.

I admitted that I didn't understand what theoretical population explosion you were speaking of. Now I do, and think your position, even if plausible, becomes difficult to maintain in light of the evidence of Jospeh, the famine, and the Exodus.

Originally posted by granite1010

Elo, I guess I appreciate your efforts, but you're trotting out Ron Wyatt. I mean, please. Do some reading on the man. He's either deluded, a fraud, or a combination of both. And this is the man you choose to believe.

Ron Wyatt's specific discovery of the Mt. Horeb, which has been validated by others, was only one thing I offered. If you feel the need to degrade him as you are, so be it. He's asleep (dead) anyway, and he isn't going to be bothered by your comments.

Originally posted by granite1010

You haven't addressed a single point I made, other than admitting you haven't a clue what I'm talking about regarding the Hebraic population explosion. If anybody around here needs help, it's you.

What points did I miss? I'd be glad to answer them. And how and why do I need help? Please be specific, and give examples.

Originally posted by granite1010

"Look, you don't know what you're talking about. Face it. That is why your life is falling apart."

Oh, please. My life is "falling apart" (or, as I see it, in transition) because my wife had an affair with the son of a church elder, who subsequently quashed the situation, fired my uncle from the church's parochial school, and ostracized my family. I'd already been doing reading on the implausibility of most Old Testament accounts, the paucity of any evidence for much of the Davidic kingdom, and was taking a very hard look at Christianity's track record of genocide, suppression, and blindness. The situation with my church just about clinched what was already on my mind.

Great. You admit your life is falling apart. (Hear that Flip?) I see that all ties into your unbelief, and that will remain my opinion.

Originally posted by granite1010

By the way, considering I'm making a very healthy living for someone my age, live in the best bloody state in the union, have a winning football team--hey, I gotta mention it--love my family, and don't subject myself to the psychological blindspots and warts of the Christian church, I'm doing just about ducky.

Maybe you had a lot of good karma in a past life, dude. If you think that you have a good life for those reasons, you're going to be sad down the road. That sounds like a real crappy life, frankly.

Originally posted by granite1010

That you think someone questioning your biblical fiction has a life that's falling apart says more about you than me.

Nice try. I know your life is falling apart because you have chosen to tell us all about it, and to announce that you are no longer a Christian. Perhaps this is some sick catharsis for you, but to some of us, it is a cry for help. I thought I heard a cry for help.

Originally posted by granite1010

"I am willing to help you."

How very, very patronizing of you. Your arrogance is the last thing I need or want.

You mean like the arrogance you have displayed so well in this post? Man, go look in the mirror.

If you think I am patronizing you, you are wrong, dead wrong.

 

[Flipper]

Elohyim:

Thanks for cursing me, but unfortunately it is now you who are cursed. Deal with that.

Yeah, except that I wasn't cursing you. I don't believe in curses.

It's just that hardship is eventually becomes part of everyone's life. It's all part of what makes us human. You will one day bury your parents (if you haven't already) or be buried by them.

 

[jeremiah]

Originally posted by Knight

LOL... you actually think Granite was a Christian??????

:thumb: In my better moments, I wonder if he really exists, or is he just an internet creation of some clever TOL atheistic poster, just enjoying himself immensely right now. He seems to come right out of central casting.

 

[firechyld]

Originally posted by jeremiah

:thumb: In my better moments, I wonder if he really exists, or is he just an internet creation of some clever TOL atheistic poster, just enjoying himself immensely right now. He seems to come right out of central casting.

If that's the case, they've certainly put a lot of work into it... he's been around for quite some time and had a lot of indepth discussions with a lot of people. 4000 posts worth, in fact. Some about casual things, some deep theological debates in which he expressed and explored his stance on certain issues. He's forged relationships, and made friends. He's said things in his posts that refer to his real life.

But then, of course, he left Christianity. And that doesn't suit you. So you decide that he either never had faith... despite the many, many posts he's made about his Christianity in the past... or that he doesn't exist at all. Grow up.

 

[jeremiah]

Originally posted by firechyld

If that's the case, they've certainly put a lot of work into it... he's been around for quite some time and had a lot of indepth discussions with a lot of people. 4000 posts worth, in fact. Some about casual things, some deep theological debates in which he expressed and explored his stance on certain issues. He's forged relationships, and made friends. He's said things in his posts that refer to his real life.

But then, of course, he left Christianity. And that doesn't suit you. So you decide that he either never had faith... despite the many, many posts he's made about his Christianity in the past... or that he doesn't exist at all. Grow up.

Hey I am still trying to figure out how Billy Bob has already gotten to 18,000 posts, and how an Atheist like Zakath has gotten to 10.000 posts on a site called "Theology" Online. 4000 would be nothing for a true professional like one of them in their spare time?????
You have to wonder about people who are not moderators, who have that many posts, and that much free time?????
:kookoo:
At any rate, I was only kidding. I am sure someone here at TOL has met granite face to face, and can vouch for him and his former Christianity.

 

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Flipper

Yeah, except that I wasn't cursing you. I don't believe in curses.

Good. You believe in blessings, right?

Originally posted by Flipper

It's just that hardship is eventually becomes part of everyone's life. It's all part of what makes us human. You will one day bury your parents (if you haven't already) or be buried by them.

Hardship is relative.

I long to bury my parents in Christ. I was buried and have been raised in Christ already.

For a Christian, death is no longer an option. Like Jesus said: she is not dead, but sleeping.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

As I said before: this is more like the Godfather, not God the Father.

I'll make you an offer you can't refuse: accept my generosity, or get tortured for the rest of eternity.

Uh-huuuuh.

Originally posted by PureX

....A "gift" that isn't really a gift at all, but a threat. To me this has always been the point where religion left God and struck out on it's own ugly and manipulative path.

I agree that our own free will is responsible for some of our suffering. But I don't agree that free will is responsible for it all. Accidents and disease are not the result of free will, yet they cause is a lot of suffering. And any claim that accidents and disease are divine punishments or lessons is just plain silly. Even the bible denies this.

I think the big mistake that religion makes is that it never really lets go of it's paganist superstitions. It imagines that life's circumstances are an expression of God's personality. This is the very definition of superstition. And once religion starts down this road, it has to begin making up excuses for why bad things happen to good people, and why a "good" God would let them. Whereas if we could eliminate the superstition, and it's connecting God's "personality" to life's circumstances, we could begin to be more realistic in our ideas about life's suffering.

But most religions don't want to give up their superstitions. It's their most powerful tool when it comes to enforcing their will and manipulating their participants. It's what holds them together. Without the threat and attraction of divine retribution they have little to offer anyone, or so they believe.

Originally posted by granite1010

The superstition is the hook. The sales pitch. Without hell, Christianity doesn't have a leg to stand on. The Bible, the church, even Jesus, is not the central doctrine of Christianity. The doctrine of eternal punishment is.

Originally posted by wickwoman

God created perfect because he is perfect.
Adam screwed up because Adam had free will
Just because Adam had the chance to do the right thing and did the wrong thing doesn’t mean he wasn’t perfect, he just made bad choices.
Though God says he wants everyone to be saved and has the power to do it, he wouldn’t usurp our free will by making us go to Heaven, that would be a violation of our freedom of choice!

Basically, because God is so wonderful, we have the free choice to burn for eternity if we choose not to love him back. Isn’t he GREAT?!

Let's get this straight. God does not send anyone to hell. He does not torture anyone. He does not choose to send anyone to hell. People choose that for themselves. And no one ever said that all suffering was a punishment from God. It's not. No suffering is a punishment from God. And hell is entered into by choice on the part of the individual, as is salvation. It's up to you. And God does not threaten hell for those who do not choose Him. He offers life [salvation] to all, and some choose to ignore Him. He does not want you to go to hell. He wants you to live with Him. He just happens to know that hell is the only opther option, so He sent His Son to die, so we would not have to go to hell. And still ignorant, arrogant fools choose death over life. Why? Because they don't want to admith that they need a Savior. Pride comes before the fall [into hell]. God has no say in whether or not you go to hell. You do.

Originally posted by Zakath

If that is true, then how do you explain some Christians' contention that the exercise of human free will can contravene the will of the deity?

They're ignorant.

I assume that the asterisk means something, but your meaning got lost somewhere... :think:

I fixed it. The line was from a song. I forgot to post the information, giving credit where credit is due.

Why would a completely self-sufficient deity do such a thing? Why does such a thing matter? He's complete within himself, he doesn't need love. Even the idea that he wants love indicates a need that, by definition, the Christian deity cannot have.

Because He loves us. It's as simple as that. He doesn't need our love, but He does desire it, because He loves us. And some of us do love Him back.

 

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by jeremiah

:thumb: In my better moments, I wonder if he really exists, or is he just an internet creation of some clever TOL atheistic poster, just enjoying himself immensely right now. He seems to come right out of central casting.

Some of the Christians posting around here don't need an "undercover agent" spreading around lies about them. There are plenty of Christians posting here that can turn us away from their god all by themselves with their extremely unchristlike behavior.

 

[On Fire]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Some of the Christians posting around here don't need an "undercover agent" spreading around lies about them. There are plenty of Christians posting here that can turn us away from their god all by themselves with their extremely unchristlike behavior.

What other aspects of your life are controlled by the words and actions of people you don't know and have never met?