No Longer A Christian
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wickwoman
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The ONLY thing that "impressed you to end your dialog" with me was your very grandiose claims of having answers and Biblical proof which you did not have so when I asked for it, you choked.
Sadly, for once, I was actually interested in what you had to say. Unfortunately, you didn't really have anything to say. I'm still gullible sometimes, comes with the hair.
If you take the joke personally then it must have been intended for you. I don't remember putting your name on it. If you don't accept it, then it doesn't belong to you. That's something else the Buddha said.
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The ONLY thing that "impressed you to end your dialog" with me was your very grandiose claims of having answers and Biblical proof which you did not have so when I asked for it, you choked.
Sadly, for once, I was actually interested in what you had to say. Unfortunately, you didn't really have anything to say. I'm still gullible sometimes, comes with the hair.
If you take the joke personally then it must have been intended for you. I don't remember putting your name on it. If you don't accept it, then it doesn't belong to you. That's something else the Buddha said.
"Granite will have NO eternal security until HE embraces the gospel."
Well, says you. Christianity is no different in its hope and optimism than any other religion out there. I'm not really interested in "eternal security," either, considering it's just another area up for debate. One more thing Christians can't seem to agree on.
On Fire said:
"We're talking about God, not sinners. God accepts you as you are. Period."
And "accepts" in what sense? Accepts me into the kingdom? Accepts me as a child abuser, or drunk? The bottomline is that we are NOT accepted "as we are." We are accepted after we change and conform.
Well, says you. Christianity is no different in its hope and optimism than any other religion out there. I'm not really interested in "eternal security," either, considering it's just another area up for debate. One more thing Christians can't seem to agree on.
On Fire said:
"We're talking about God, not sinners. God accepts you as you are. Period."
And "accepts" in what sense? Accepts me into the kingdom? Accepts me as a child abuser, or drunk? The bottomline is that we are NOT accepted "as we are." We are accepted after we change and conform.
God has the power to do anything that is logically possible. God is the most powerful force in all existence and there is no power greater than Him.Originally posted by Zakath
Define "omnipotent" and we'll see...
Mr. Coffee
New member
McKinsey's a crank. Check it out:
"Death by fire was not a form of punishment inflicted at Rome in the time of Nero," so McKinsey asserts that the descriptions of Christians being used as living torches has "little title to credence, and suggest(s) an imagination exalted by reading stories of later Christian martyrs."
The charge was arson, and according to Roman law, being burned was the proper punishment, in line with what was prescribed in the Twelve Tables.
Table VIII.10: "Any person who destroys by burning any building or heap of corn deposited alongside a house shall be bound, scourged, and put to death by burning at the stake provided that he has committed the said misdeed with malice aforethought; but if he shall have committed it by accident, that is, by negligence, it is ordained that he repair the damage or, if he be too poor to be competent for such punishment, he shall receive a lighter punishment."
He cites Mark 8.34 ("take up your cross and follow me") and asks: "The obvious question is, what cross? There is no cross to take up. Jesus had not yet died on the cross...So any reference to the cross before the Crucifixion would have made no sense to anyone unless they knew the future."
But they knew darn well what a cross was!
He critiques Acts 1.12, which says: "Then they returned to Jerusalem from the hill called the Mount of Olives, a Sabbath day's walk from the city." McKinsey writes: "This must be false in view of the fact that Olivet, the Mount of Olives, was just outside the wall of Jerusalem near the Temple, hardly a sabbath days' journey."
A sabbath day's journey, according to Pharisaic oral law, was the distance that a person could travel on the sabbath without violating the Sabbath law in the Torah--3/4 of a mile.
A "primer on the topic" you say? McKinsey needs a primer on the history, culture, and sociology of the Bible and the ancient world.
Sigh.
So a quick Google search along the lines of "McKinsey + criticized" is the best we can do, huh. A few quick web searches does not a critique make.
McKinsey is not the first to question the allegations and details of persecution under Nero. Other scholars question the ferocity of the persecution, and whether the stories of Nero using Christians as candles at his garden parties was an embellishment or a fact. Josephus, for his part, while detailing Nero's murder of his own family and personal debauchery, never once mentions the Neronic persecution.
In any event a few quick hits can't reproof the bulk of McKinsey's work. Sorry, but you'll have to do better than a hit and run response if you want to impugn the mass of his research.
elohiym
Well-known member
Fine. But I base what I believe on God's word, evidence, and experience (another type of evidence).
Are you interested in evidence? You sound like you already made up your mind. How about proof of the Exodus, to include a burnt non-volcanic mountain top where God descended on it as the flames of a furnace, an altar to support a golden calf, a split rock at the burnt mountain where water gushed out in such quantity that it washed the granite smooth, etc. There's more, but are you interested?
I could help you find all the proof you need to take another shot at Christianity, but you'll have to take it step-by-step. Let's start with the Exodus, and the archeological evidence of the miracles that took place at and on the way to Mount Horeb. If those miracles happened, and there is evidence, then that should speak to your heart.
elohiym
Well-known member
What evidence do you need to see? You want me to produce a living body?Originally posted by Zakath
If he lived twenty centuries ago, then he's not.
If you've got evidence to the contrary, let's see it.
Can you show me radio waves, Zakath? If I can't see them, they must not exist. Forget all the evidence that points to radio waves existing even though we cannot see them.
Who created butterflies, Zakath, since they were obviously created by something/someone? They could not have evolved.
Please take those as rhetorical questions since I really have no desire in engaging such a devoted God-hater as you.
"Are you interested in evidence? You sound like you already made up your mind."
I made up my mind based on evidence I found persuasive, as you have.
"How about proof of the Exodus, to include a burnt non-volcanic mountain top where God descended on it as the flames of a furnace, an altar to support a golden calf, a split rock at the burnt mountain where water gushed out in such quantity that it washed the granite smooth, etc. There's more, but are you interested?"
The Exodus poses its own questions, including the massive population explosion of the Israelites and the quickness of their passage through the Red Sea, among others. No records exist that Joseph or Moses existed or played a role in Egyptian politics. The Egyptian economy and military did not collapse following the flight of their gigantic Hebrew work/slave force. We don't even have Egyptian records twisting the stories of Joseph and Moses into glories for Egypt and Pharaoh.
"I could help you find all the proof you need to take another shot at Christianity, but you'll have to take it step-by-step."
No offense, but absolutely nothing, at this point, will persuade me to give Christianity "another shot." And not to put too fine a point on it, but the implication that I somehow don't know what I'm talking about or haven't done my research is pretty insulting. I spent over two decades in the church; I know arguments for the stories and now I've become acquainted with arguments against them.
I don't expect a response to this, really, other than dismissal. Hardened my heart. Not interested in the facts. But the fact is, I AM interested, and the facts that we have do not support the scriptural account. The Exodus story is, if anything, either a massive fantasy or an embellishment.
I made up my mind based on evidence I found persuasive, as you have.
"How about proof of the Exodus, to include a burnt non-volcanic mountain top where God descended on it as the flames of a furnace, an altar to support a golden calf, a split rock at the burnt mountain where water gushed out in such quantity that it washed the granite smooth, etc. There's more, but are you interested?"
The Exodus poses its own questions, including the massive population explosion of the Israelites and the quickness of their passage through the Red Sea, among others. No records exist that Joseph or Moses existed or played a role in Egyptian politics. The Egyptian economy and military did not collapse following the flight of their gigantic Hebrew work/slave force. We don't even have Egyptian records twisting the stories of Joseph and Moses into glories for Egypt and Pharaoh.
"I could help you find all the proof you need to take another shot at Christianity, but you'll have to take it step-by-step."
No offense, but absolutely nothing, at this point, will persuade me to give Christianity "another shot." And not to put too fine a point on it, but the implication that I somehow don't know what I'm talking about or haven't done my research is pretty insulting. I spent over two decades in the church; I know arguments for the stories and now I've become acquainted with arguments against them.
I don't expect a response to this, really, other than dismissal. Hardened my heart. Not interested in the facts. But the fact is, I AM interested, and the facts that we have do not support the scriptural account. The Exodus story is, if anything, either a massive fantasy or an embellishment.
elohiym
Well-known member
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You seem to believe that little children are suffering in this world because of something THEY did in a "past life" and that you have such a great life because of what YOU did in a past life. To listen to your spew that garbage, and at the same time stating you wanted to do a hell study with me, and at the same time carrying a big chip on your shoulder against the brand of "christianity" you were raised in, did not provide an environment conducive to sharing anything with you.
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No. I simply acted in the spirit and ended our dialogue, rather abruptly, because of what I read in your posts. Please show me where I made any "grandiose claims", or your response that forced me to choke.
You seem to believe that little children are suffering in this world because of something THEY did in a "past life" and that you have such a great life because of what YOU did in a past life. To listen to your spew that garbage, and at the same time stating you wanted to do a hell study with me, and at the same time carrying a big chip on your shoulder against the brand of "christianity" you were raised in, did not provide an environment conducive to sharing anything with you.
So you are saying that you were gullible to be interested in what I had to say? Are you saying it was sad to be interested? What is it that you found interesting, if I had nothing to say?
When you refer to Christians that rest in their eternal salvation, you have put my name on it. I am one with them, part of the same body.
elohiym
Well-known member
I have no idea what problems are created by the "population explosion" you elude to. As for the Red Sea crossing, there is an underwater land bridge that exists between the Sinia penninsula and the ancient land of Midian (now Saudi Arabia) where the Bible states Mt. Horeb is located. I personally have friends that have been diving at the site. Chariot wheels remains have been found at the site by Biblical archeologist Ron Wyatt. I have seen pictures from the air of the crossing site, and have seen pictures of men standing on the underwater land bridge at high tide with water only up to their waste.
Not true. First, in an Egyptian tomb of a wealthy non-Hebrew woman is inscribed that she sent her servant to trade with Joseph for food during the famine. He wasn't interested in her jewelery. And there is more extra-biblical evidence of Joseph and the famine than that.
Second, in Saudi Arabia, on the route to Mt. Horeb, there is evidence of the twelve springs and seventy palms that the children of Israel stopped at. Near those springs are Egyptian tombs, and inside those tombs are writings that state that the prohpet Moses came through that way with his nation of people. This was witnessed by the Biblical explorers Larry Williams and Bob Cornuke, and documented in their video The Real Mount Sinai, which followed on and confirmed Ron Wyatt's discovery of the real Mount Sinai (Mt. Horeb) site.
Like in one of our early dialogues in the Back Alley where you insisted I didn't know what I was talking about because I wasn't a Hebrew scholar? I guess you do reap what you sow.
Look, you don't know what you're talking about. Face it. That is why your life is falling apart.
I am willing to help you. If I need to sugar coat my approach with you, just let me know, and I'll even try that.
So what are the arguments against what I have offered so far?
Or it is the truth. I can easily prove that to you, or you can just look at the research that has been done. You don't need to take my word for anything, but you will need to consider what has been proven to be true by direct evidence.
wickwoman
New member
Dear Elohiym:
I believe what I said in the other conversation we were having which "caused you to choke" was, "sounds interesting, what have you got" or some other benign and friendly invitation such as that. You are free to find it and quote verbatim if you'd like.
What is sad is that I rarely engage people such as yourself, and the one time I took one of you seriously you disappointed me.
I believe what I said in the other conversation we were having which "caused you to choke" was, "sounds interesting, what have you got" or some other benign and friendly invitation such as that. You are free to find it and quote verbatim if you'd like.
What is sad is that I rarely engage people such as yourself, and the one time I took one of you seriously you disappointed me.
Mr. Coffee
New member
He said "Death by fire was not a form of punishment inflicted at Rome in the time of Nero." Wrong. He also said that the Romans wouldn't have burned people alive because of the risk of the fire spreading! Is this guy for REAL?
He is obviously not an expert on the history of the ancient world. His reasoning about Mark 8.34 is so specious there is no reason to take him seriously or study him any further.
"I have no idea what problems are created by the 'population explosion' you elude to."
Then I suggest you a) do some reading, and b) then do the math. The population of the Hebrew community exceeded that of Egypt itself. And in a space of maybe 400 years. With a very, very small initial population.
"I personally have friends that have been diving at the site. Chariot wheels remains have been found at the site by Biblical archeologist Ron Wyatt."
Oh, dear God. RON WYATT. You have got to be kidding me. The same guy who found the blood of Christ and proved with DNA that Jesus was virgin born? That's what I thought. Wyatt's the Erick von Daniken of the Christian community: very entertaining and absolutely, irrevocably, koo-koo for cocoa puffs.
"Not true. First, in an Egyptian tomb of a wealthy non-Hebrew woman is inscribed that she sent her servant to trade with Joseph for food during the famine. He wasn't interested in her jewelery. And there is more extra-biblical evidence of Joseph and the famine than that."
If so, you better demonstrate it.
"Like in one of our early dialogues in the Back Alley where you insisted I didn't know what I was talking about because I wasn't a Hebrew scholar? I guess you do reap what you sow."
Well, you probably don't. You just admitted as much above. Elo, I guess I appreciate your efforts, but you're trotting out Ron Wyatt. I mean, please. Do some reading on the man. He's either deluded, a fraud, or a combination of both. And this is the man you choose to believe. You haven't addressed a single point I made, other than admitting you haven't a clue what I'm talking about regarding the Hebraic population explosion. If anybody around here needs help, it's you.
"Look, you don't know what you're talking about. Face it. That is why your life is falling apart."
Oh, please. My life is "falling apart" (or, as I see it, in transition) because my wife had an affair with the son of a church elder, who subsequently quashed the situation, fired my uncle from the church's parochial school, and ostracized my family. I'd already been doing reading on the implausibility of most Old Testament accounts, the paucity of any evidence for much of the Davidic kingdom, and was taking a very hard look at Christianity's track record of genocide, suppression, and blindness. The situation with my church just about clinched what was already on my mind.
By the way, considering I'm making a very healthy living for someone my age, live in the best bloody state in the union, have a winning football team--hey, I gotta mention it--love my family, and don't subject myself to the psychological blindspots and warts of the Christian church, I'm doing just about ducky. That you think someone questioning your biblical fiction has a life that's falling apart says more about you than me.
"I am willing to help you."
How very, very patronizing of you. Your arrogance is the last thing I need or want.
Then I suggest you a) do some reading, and b) then do the math. The population of the Hebrew community exceeded that of Egypt itself. And in a space of maybe 400 years. With a very, very small initial population.
"I personally have friends that have been diving at the site. Chariot wheels remains have been found at the site by Biblical archeologist Ron Wyatt."
Oh, dear God. RON WYATT. You have got to be kidding me. The same guy who found the blood of Christ and proved with DNA that Jesus was virgin born? That's what I thought. Wyatt's the Erick von Daniken of the Christian community: very entertaining and absolutely, irrevocably, koo-koo for cocoa puffs.
"Not true. First, in an Egyptian tomb of a wealthy non-Hebrew woman is inscribed that she sent her servant to trade with Joseph for food during the famine. He wasn't interested in her jewelery. And there is more extra-biblical evidence of Joseph and the famine than that."
If so, you better demonstrate it.
"Like in one of our early dialogues in the Back Alley where you insisted I didn't know what I was talking about because I wasn't a Hebrew scholar? I guess you do reap what you sow."
Well, you probably don't. You just admitted as much above. Elo, I guess I appreciate your efforts, but you're trotting out Ron Wyatt. I mean, please. Do some reading on the man. He's either deluded, a fraud, or a combination of both. And this is the man you choose to believe. You haven't addressed a single point I made, other than admitting you haven't a clue what I'm talking about regarding the Hebraic population explosion. If anybody around here needs help, it's you.
"Look, you don't know what you're talking about. Face it. That is why your life is falling apart."
Oh, please. My life is "falling apart" (or, as I see it, in transition) because my wife had an affair with the son of a church elder, who subsequently quashed the situation, fired my uncle from the church's parochial school, and ostracized my family. I'd already been doing reading on the implausibility of most Old Testament accounts, the paucity of any evidence for much of the Davidic kingdom, and was taking a very hard look at Christianity's track record of genocide, suppression, and blindness. The situation with my church just about clinched what was already on my mind.
By the way, considering I'm making a very healthy living for someone my age, live in the best bloody state in the union, have a winning football team--hey, I gotta mention it--love my family, and don't subject myself to the psychological blindspots and warts of the Christian church, I'm doing just about ducky.
That you think someone questioning your biblical fiction has a life that's falling apart says more about you than me."I am willing to help you."
How very, very patronizing of you. Your arrogance is the last thing I need or want.
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