No Longer A Christian

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On Fire

On Fire

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Originally posted by wickwoman

What about you Zakath. I see your "conversion" thread is quite a long running one. How long has it been going on now? Do you feel yourself weakening just a little? ;)
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Like you, he has neither the will, nor the heart, nor the mind to transform. Good luck with that.
 
PureX

PureX

Well-known member
Originally posted by jeremiah jeremiah----- Then you , yourself, truly are "self righteous", and fully believe in it.
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Everyone is. When we believe that "God forgives us", we don't realize that what we are calling "God" is a god of our own conception, and so is "his" forgiveness. We are in effect forgiving ourselves using this conceptual third party that we call "God". This is actually one of the reasons that I think it's good for most human beings to believe in God: through this belief, which we are defining as perfect goodness, righteousness, forgiveness, etc., we are actually calling up these concepts from within ourselves, and as we seek to align ourselves with our "God", we are in effect seeking to express the best that is within us. Even if God doesn't exist in any form other then the idea of God that we hold in our minds, that idea is still worth holding on to for most people, I think, because through it we aspire to be the best people that we can conceive of being.

I think this is more what Wickwoman was referring to by her statement that "righteousness and forgiveness can only be found within ourselves". Though I admit she didn't explain this statement, and left it out there as a kind of inarguable absolute.
Originally posted by jeremiah The result of this statement is that anyone who is seeking righteousness in Christ can not, "potentially" be as righteous as she, with her beliefs, or any self dependent atheist. She may not be saying that she has acheived greater self righteousness than most Christians, but she is saying it is the only true means to it. Therefore Atheists and agnostics are at least potentially more righteous than Christians. I doubt if there is anyone of that persuasion, on TOL, that I know of, that would disagree very much, with that conclusion, from her statement?
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I think you misunderstood her statement (understandable, as she didn't explain it very well) and that once you understand her point, you'll see that she isn't making any statements about who is more righteous than whom. In fact, she's saying that whatever righteousness quotient you possess comes from within yourself. This means that not she nor anyone else can establish how righteous you or anyone else is. Only you can establish this for yourself. And I agree with her.
 
wickwoman

wickwoman

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Originally posted by jeremiah

jeremiah----- Then you , yourself, truly are "self righteous", and fully believe in it.

See what I mean, PureX. Wickwoman, has just made an absolute statement. The result of this statement is that anyone who is seeking righteousness in Christ can not, "potentially" be as righteous as she, with her beliefs, or any self dependent atheist.
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To the contrary. It is through the Christ you will see your true righteousness. Only I believe the Christ is within you, not on the outside.

Originally posted by jeremiah
She may not be saying that she has acheived greater self righteousness than most Christians, but she is saying it is the only true means to it. Therefore Atheists and agnostics are at least potentially more righteous than Christians. I doubt if there is anyone of that persuasion, on TOL, that I know of, that would disagree very much, with that conclusion, from her statement?
They are certainly free to do so, if they care to.
The Christian message is that one works out ther own personal righteousness "in" Christ, and also has an imputed righteuosness in regards to salvation "from" Christ.
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There is no higher or lower forms of righteousness. There is only oneness. And you are either with God or on your way, in my opinion. So, whether you're searching here or there for truth you'll get there sooner or later. There's no point in discussing who's better off if we all end up in the same place for eternity, only how do we affect those around us on our way, do we show love and compassion? Or judgment?
 
Gerald

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by On Fire

If the best you have is to attack my typo, you need a life.

And the soppy (is that even a word?) poem is by C. H. Spurgeon.
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Charles Haddock Sturgeon.

I figured you'd bring him into this, sooner or later. :chuckle:
 
wickwoman

wickwoman

New member
Originally posted by PureX
I think this is more what Wickwoman was referring to by her statement that "righteousness and forgiveness can only be found within ourselves". Though I admit she didn't explain this statement, and left it out there as a kind of inarguable absolute.
I think you misunderstood her statement (understandable, as she didn't explain it very well) and that once you understand her point, you'll see that she isn't making any statements about who is more righteous than whom. In fact, she's saying that whatever righteousness quotient you possess comes from within yourself. This means that not she nor anyone else can establish how righteous you or anyone else is. Only you can establish this for yourself. And I agree with her.
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Thanks! That's what I was trying to say. I don't think that saying everyone is capable of knowing God is being self-righteous. A humanist, maybe (oh no, not that!) but not self-righteous.
 
Gerald

Gerald

Resident Fiend
Originally posted by On Fire
Like you, he has neither the will, nor the heart, nor the mind to transform. Good luck with that.
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To transform into what you describe is pointless.
 
BChristianK

BChristianK

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Originally posted by wickwoman

Righteousness and forgiveness can only be found within one's self, not provided by an outside source.
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So I conclude from your statement that you trust in your own "inner" rightousness in lieu of the imputed rightousness of Christ, correct?

Grace and Peace
 
Ecumenicist

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by wickwoman

Righteousness and forgiveness can only be found within one's self, not provided by an outside source.
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I'll agree that the Christian ideas of forgiveness and righteousness
are skewed, but I won't go as far as you do.

The Psalmist asks God to convict her (him). The wimpy "out"
modern Christians take is a get out of jail free card. But that
doesn't take away the pain, the guilt, the sin.

Only by being tried and convicted can we see the error of
our ways, and only after accepting that trial and conviction,
can we find freedom. The Psalmist asks for God's conviction
to be upon himself (herself) because the Psalmist recognizes
how skewed our own perspectives can be. Only God can
judge justly, and for those interested in truth and justice
which transcends our own petty self defensive subjective
viewpoints and reactions,
seeking God's truth, even and especially if it means our
own conviction, is the only option for finding freedom.

Grace is not found in avoiding judgement, Grace is found
in the sentencing which occurs after the judgment.

The love of God IS the righteous judgement of God.

djm
 
wickwoman

wickwoman

New member
Originally posted by BChristianK

So I conclude from your statement that you trust in your own "inner" rightousness in lieu of the imputed rightousness of Christ, correct?

Grace and Peace
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Please see my other post about the indwelling Christ.
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by wickwoman

What about you Zakath. I see your "conversion" thread is quite a long running one. How long has it been going on now? Do you feel yourself weakening just a little? ;)
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The current thread has been going on for a couple of months... there were at least two previous threads on a similar subject by different posters over the past several years... neither of the posters post here any longer.

:yawn:

And, no, I'm not feeling "weakening", merely occasional boredom at having to go over the same ground repeatedly.
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by wickwoman

I agree. I wasn't trying to blame the Catholics. Only to point out that a very large number of men (i.e. priests) who are forbidden normal sexual relations seem to lean towards perversion. Then you have the Jimmy Swaggarts of the world. I'm sure if fundamentlist ministers were forbidden to marry, they'd probably be worse. I mean, its one of the few things left they CAN do.
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Agreed. :thumb:

I just saw a program on 20/20 where they had adults posing as minors in chat rooms engage in sexualy explicit talk with adult males and then lure them to a meeting place. They rented a house in the burbs and had over 18 men (in only two days) come there expecting to have sex with a 13, 14, or 15 year old girl. There's got to be some explanation for that.
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There are any number of potential explanations. Aside from the fundy fringe who blame all such behavior on demons, most other explanations are rooted in dysfunctional biology of the adult males who participate in such activities. :kookoo:
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by On Fire

Like you, he has neither the will, nor the heart, nor the mind to transform. Good luck with that.
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So you believe that "some vessels are created for dishonor", i.e. that some people cannot be "saved"? :think:
 
On Fire

On Fire

New member
Originally posted by Zakath

So you believe that "some vessels are created for dishonor", i.e. that some people cannot be "saved"? :think:
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Nope. Everyone CAN be saved. Some choose not to be.
 
wickwoman

wickwoman

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Aha! I found yet ANOTHER scripture I can agree with:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! , lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21, KJV
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by On Fire

Nope. Everyone CAN be saved. Some choose not to be.
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So you're asserting that human will can override the will of your deity?

That certainly doesn't make him very powerful then, does it?


BTW, how do you reconcile that idea that all men can be saved with Jesus' alleged comment about Judas while praying to YHWH...

"...None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. " - Jn. 17:12b
 
Zakath

Zakath

Resident Atheist
Originally posted by wickwoman

Aha! I found yet ANOTHER scripture I can agree with:

And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! , lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Luke 17:20-21, KJV
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"Thou art God!" - V. M. Smith in Stranger in a Strange Land
 
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