New Study Contradicts Religious Bias

[Huckleberry]

I don't hate conservatives or Christians. The problem is that conservative Christians can't take ANY criticism at all without going berserk! They identify themselves with their ideologies, so that anytime anyone contradicts or disparages their ideology, they think they are being personally attacked, and they respond with personal attacks. Just as you are doing. Just as Bybee does. And many others here. You people can't tell the difference between arguing against an idea, and spitting in your face. Because you react pretty much exactly the same way to either one.

And what's more puzzling is the idea that you can never possibly be wrong about anything. You can never be ignorant, or ego-centric, or bigoted, or selfish, and so anyone who ever dares to assert that you and yours might be, MUST by a lying hater. Thus, you people never face your own crap! Ever. And so it just festers and gets uglier and more absurd by the year.

Grow up! You're no better than any of the people you so LOVE to judge and condemn.

Purex, it seems lately that all you do is accuse and condemn. You never answer charges to support your accusations either.

You know who does that? Bigots. Prejudicial bigots. People whose mind is so made up that those other guys are the devil incarnate that any false accusation is justified and any assertion can be made, with no support. All bets are off. You can say whatever you like about them and never have to answer any of it.

Because you're automatically right, even when you're wrong. And they're automatically wrong, even when they're not. Because bigotry.

Try actually supporting some of the claims you make. Especially those that you're specifically challenged to support. Continuing to make accusations with nothing to back them up only serves to reveal yourself as the irrational, hate-poisoned bigot that I'm honestly becoming convinced that you are.

Seriously, just try it. Just once. Support an accusation. The worst thing that will happen is that you have to actually think for a second.

 

[aikido7]

Lon, you accused me of “free association liberalism” when I posed that Jesus savagely attacked the family values of his day.

When I provided actual, scriptural quotations from Jesus, you said nothing.

Does that mean you have nothing else to say?
That you agree with me now?
That you disagree but haven’t yet posted that fact?

What is it that is preventing you from taking Jesus’s comments about the family seriously?

 

[aikido7]

Purex, it seems lately that all you do is accuse and condemn. You never answer charges to support your accusations either.

You know who does that? Bigots. Prejudicial bigots. People whose mind is so made up that those other guys are the devil incarnate that any false accusation is justified and any assertion can be made, with no support. All bets are off. You can say whatever you like about them and never have to answer any of it.

Because you're automatically right, even when you're wrong. And they're automatically wrong, even when they're not. Because bigotry.

Try actually supporting some of the claims you make. Especially those that you're specifically challenged to support. Continuing to make accusations with nothing to back them up only serves to reveal yourself as the irrational, hate-poisoned bigot that I'm honestly becoming convinced that you are.

Seriously, just try it. Just once. Support an accusation. The worst thing that will happen is that you have to actually think for a second.

When I am asked to support my own thoughts and beliefs I do so. I am only too willing to provide the actual teachings of Jesus to bolster my interpretations.

I have found that after providing this evidence, most posters seem to let these verses and passages from the Bible not register with them at all.

 

[ok doser]

The problem is ...

...within you, purex, but you're afraid to confront that, so you project outwards and imagine faults in others - you have such an enormous log in your eye that you refuse to acknowledge

 

[Lon]

Lon, you accused me of “free association liberalism” when I posed that Jesus savagely attacked the family values of his day.

Not that 'free association' is a harsh accusation, but it wasn't as strong as accusation:

Seems like 'free-association' liberal theology to me. You'd have to really spell this one out, but it has earmarks of very liberal interpretation out of the gate.

When I provided actual, scriptural quotations from Jesus, you said nothing.

Thank you for the bump. I missed it.

Does that mean you have nothing else to say?
That you agree with me now?
That you disagree but haven’t yet posted that fact?

What is it that is preventing you from taking Jesus’s comments about the family seriously?

Again, thanks for the bump...had to find it. I do see and understand your observations better. I think I even agree to extent but not sure I can go over the 'radical attack' margin and I've no idea what you are referring to concerning children commanded to murder their parents :noway:

Notice where the axis of separation is drawn: it is between the young and the old, the children against their parents and inlaws.

It is the family in which we first learn to love as well as to hate.

The family was set up on a pedestal in Jesus’ day. A powerful elder patriarch ruling over a household with the power of life and death. It was not unusual for a parent to scapegoat a weaker or ill member of the clan. The ruling father had the final word on all decisions, including where his inheritance would go.

Jesus told a follower who was on his way to the sacred ceremony of a family funeral was told “Let the dead bury the dead.”

When Jesus was praised by a woman who blessed him because he was born and suckled by a mother, he immediately countered by "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

His own family grabbed him tried to hold him because others said he was insane and they believed them.

A man asked Jesus “Who are my brothers? Who is my mother?”

And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers!
For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Agreed, but this isn't anti-family. Remember Jesus telling John to take care of His mother?

He also advised people to hate their family. Children should murder their parents. He predicted an apocalypse when family members would kill each other. Men should castrate themselves if they choose. He said to call no man one’s father on earth.

Again, He didn't hate Mary. Murder parents? Where do you read that?

And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

This, however, isn't anti-family. My daughter left for college, that isn't anti-family.

But Jesus DID call the children to him. Only the loving and the innocent can inherit the kingdom.

And notice his parable of the just family: the prodigal is welcomed back to his father with a feast. The elder brother cannot stop from being angry and jealous but the father comforts him as well. He shows no favoritism.

I see where you are going with this but your statement was 'radical attack' against the family, so asking you about it was necessary, and thanks for taking a lot of time to explain that, sincerely. Children murdering their parents as a command is foreign to me (verse?) and I think I'd be sure, in the future to show that though the gospel does demand family members against family members, it is the opposition to the gospel that makes for that. The two great commands to love God and Love man may indeed come between us and family members. In my thinking, that isn't a "radical attack" but a "radical call" to follow Jesus.

If you’ve ever given any thought to the radical attacks on the family by Jesus, this is why.

It went back to the OP, concerning whether Christians are authoritarian parents. I think that is missing the mark. God is an authoritarian as Author, Creator, and Sustainer of all men. For me, the end-result of what is proven to be a more altruistic person, overshadows these kinds of studies and necessarily calls them into question, if not outright dismissing them without a hearing. There is no way their end statements that secular upbringing produces a more altruistic citizen. At the end of the day, following the real altruistic sacrifices and $ belies what cannot but be faulty summations from their shoddy or well done research. That is, even if there is a shred of evidentiary there, their conclusions must necessarily be wrong.

 

[Dialogos]

I don't hate conservatives or Christians. The problem is that conservative Christians can't take ANY criticism at all without going berserk! They identify themselves with their ideologies, so that anytime anyone contradicts or disparages their ideology, they think they are being personally attacked, and they respond with personal attacks.

As others have pointed out, what we respond to are the personal attacks that are based on lies. Making up lies about people groups in order to castigate them and present them in the worst possible light is a hallmark of bigotry.
You don’t even see that what you are doing here is a classic tactic by those who hate others.
Throughout history, those who seek to vent their hatred on others have done the same thing; highlight what is negative about a group of people (in this case, the “religious”) and find a way to explain away what is positive about that same group of people so that they can only been seen in a negative light, making it easier for others to hate them as well.

That’s what you are doing right now. It is a sure sign of the seething hatred that you have for both conservatives and Christians.

Just as you are doing. Just as Bybee does. And many others here. You people can't tell the difference between arguing against an idea, and spitting in your face.

“You people…”

:nono:

Another sign of your bigotry.

And what's more puzzling is the idea that you can never possibly be wrong about anything.

I’m not the one straining to defend a lie here, PureX. It has been demonstrated to you by post, after post, after post that your attempt to nullify the generosity of those you call “religious” is basically just the logical fallacy of special pleading. When data is presented countering your claims, you simply move the goal post and argue that any charity on the part of conservative Christians just doesn’t count.

What is more, even the basis for your attempt to disaqualify Christian charity is a lie.

It isn’t true that most Christian service comes with strings attached!
There can only be one explanation for why you would make up this lie, your hatred for conservative Christianity is so seething that you refuse to see anything that would contradict your prejudice.

You can never be ignorant, or ego-centric, or bigoted, or selfish, and so anyone who ever dares to assert that you and yours might be, MUST by a lying hater.

I can and have been all of those things. Nevertheless, you are lying and that reveals your hatred.

Thus, you people never face your own crap! Ever. And so it just festers and gets uglier and more absurd by the year.

Christians have our fair share of things to repent of, you will find no excuses for sin from me. If and when you make fair criticisms, I’ll be happy to agree with you.

Grow up!

If it’s all the same to you, and even if it isn’t, I’ll take my admonishments from those I trust and respect. You should not count yourself among that group.

You're no better than…

Of course I’m not!
And if you ever decide to get off your illusory high horse and join those who actually are doing the work of making this country and world a better place for the poor you will find that despite your bigotry, you are still welcome to join us.

…any of the people you so LOVE to judge and condemn.

It’s been made pretty clear by my Lord that I am in no place to condemn anyone.

And for that matter, neither are you.

 

[PureX]

As others have pointed out, what we respond to are the personal attacks that are based on lies.

There are no personal attacks based on lies. That's a figment of your own warped imagination. What there is, is a contradictory view based on observations and opinions. But because you cannot separate your self from your ideology, you think you are being "attacked". And because you can't conceive of your ideology as ever being wrong, the "attacker" MUST then be "lying about it". This is the sickness that comes of gaining your identity through your ideology (religious, political, or otherwise).

And since you always think you're being attacked, your constantly trying to attack others. It certainly is not a Christian way to live!

(The "you" is generic, here. It applies to a whole host of TOL participants.)

 

[PureX]

Purex, it seems lately that all you do is accuse and condemn.

Yes, that's how it looks to people who don't understand that they are as often wrong as they are right. ANY criticism appears unfair, and outrageous, and uncalled for, to them.

You never answer charges to support your accusations either.

I don't waste time trying to teach the unteachable, no.

 

[Sherman]

I provided links. You? :nono:


Gossip is a sin. Trying to make your erroneous impressions vocal as if they are fact is a sin. You are flat-out, sinning against God and His church. The Salvation Army is an evangelical institution. The foodbank I work at is evangelical. The rescue mission is evangelical....

After that, if you think that sharing Christ with a person isn't what is best for people, you are no Christian and should change your moniker.


This is hate. "Give me your food and $ but shut up because I don't want to hear your garbage and I don't respect you for saying something with the money and food I'm taking from you regardless." Bitter-much? You sound like a flamer.

I have a right to tell you that Jesus Christ changed my heart in such a way that it makes other people important, in hopes 1) that you will have the greatest thing and Person in your life that has happened in mine, and 2) so that you will understand why I out-give all others.

You are frankly, crazy, to think 'no-strings-attached' somehow removes the sacrifice of out-giving all others in our time, talents, and money. Flat out crazy... and a liar. You are making a blanket statement in bitterness that isn't true. I have never 'preached' at people at the foodbank. There is a devotion at the beginning but people that don't want to hear that come afterwards. They don't 'have' to stay and hear that. We are trying, however, to give them water that one would never thirst again. Again, you should REALLY re-think your 'christian (other)' description if you hate the beautiful saving message of Jesus Christ.

If I take care of only your immediate physical need and neglect your greater spiritual need, what's the point? It is BECAUSE we adamantly believe that a person's need is Jesus, that we confess Him before men. Matthew 10:33 If you keep it up, you are not going to make it Purex.

:first: Another post of day on the heels of a recent Post of the day.

 

[Huckleberry]

Yes, that's how it looks to people who don't understand that they are as often wrong as they are right. ANY criticism appears unfair, and outrageous, and uncalled for, to them.

I never said anything was "unfair, outrageous and/uncalled for". What I said is that all you do anymore is accuse and condemn, without cause or support. Like you just did again.

I don't waste time trying to teach the unteachable, no.

Which is why you're rapidly becoming no more relevant than posters like The Horn. A bigoted ideologue in league with the accuser of the brethren and an enemy of the truth.

 

[rocketman]

I provided links. You? :nono:


Gossip is a sin. Trying to make your erroneous impressions vocal as if they are fact is a sin. You are flat-out, sinning against God and His church. The Salvation Army is an evangelical institution. The foodbank I work at is evangelical. The rescue mission is evangelical....

After that, if you think that sharing Christ with a person isn't what is best for people, you are no Christian and should change your moniker.


This is hate. "Give me your food and $ but shut up because I don't want to hear your garbage and I don't respect you for saying something with the money and food I'm taking from you regardless." Bitter-much? You sound like a flamer.

I have a right to tell you that Jesus Christ changed my heart in such a way that it makes other people important, in hopes 1) that you will have the greatest thing and Person in your life that has happened in mine, and 2) so that you will understand why I out-give all others.

You are frankly, crazy, to think 'no-strings-attached' somehow removes the sacrifice of out-giving all others in our time, talents, and money. Flat out crazy... and a liar. You are making a blanket statement in bitterness that isn't true. I have never 'preached' at people at the foodbank. There is a devotion at the beginning but people that don't want to hear that come afterwards. They don't 'have' to stay and hear that. We are trying, however, to give them water that one would never thirst again. Again, you should REALLY re-think your 'christian (other)' description if you hate the beautiful saving message of Jesus Christ.

If I take care of only your immediate physical need and neglect your greater spiritual need, what's the point? It is BECAUSE we adamantly believe that a person's need is Jesus, that we confess Him before men. Matthew 10:33 If you keep it up, you are not going to make it Purex.

An absolute solid post...Great Job Lon. :thumb:

 

[Lon]

There are no personal attacks based on lies.

It is both personal and an attack. You called what I did crap and brow-beating rather than lovingly giving. You did that.

That's a figment of your own warped imagination.

Now, not only does the incredibly amount of money and time I spent not mean anything, because someone shared the gospel for about 4 minutes, but my mind is warped to take your insult as personal as well...

What there is, is a contradictory view based on observations and opinions.

It is your view, that much is true. Your observations are wrong and your opinion wasn't given with any substantiation, but as a bold-face lie. That's why all in this thread took offense. You shared no incident you observed or link substantiating any of it. Worse, if you don't do anything at all, as was said before, you are an incredible hypocrite, giving neither your time, talent, or money, yet sitting in judgment over those of us who do. That's pretty wicked from where you sit while I stand, give, and work.

But because you cannot separate your self from your ideology, you think you are being "attacked".

...

I'm going to keep correcting this myth...

Christians do not give...they demand things in return ...they demand...
Christians don't give to the poor, they pay the poor

And if they don't pretend to repent, they get cut off. That isn't 'giving'. That's buying.

"giving" is a form of coercion for "evangelical" Christians.
You're mind is a mess!

... you people never face your own crap! Grow up! You're no better than any of the people you so LOVE to judge and condemn.

:think: Not a link in there anywhere. Nothing to show it happens, let alone most of the time...

And because you can't conceive of your ideology as ever being wrong, the "attacker" MUST then be "lying about it".

Again, I provided links for proof. You? :nono: It is you making stuff up.

This is the sickness that comes of gaining your identity through your ideology (religious, political, or otherwise).

It makes sense that you think we evangelicals suffer from a sickness. I didn't realize how far gone you were given to this judgment and rejection of us. I'm shocked you are on TOL. You seem to really hate us, or feel sorry for us :think:

And since you always think you're being attacked, your constantly trying to attack others. It certainly is not a Christian way to live!

John 8:43-45 That was Christ talking.

(The "you" is generic, here. It applies to a whole host of TOL participants.)

That's good, he doesn't need to be the only one who took offense, and he certainly isn't. I think, more important than feeling cheated by you, out of the hard work I put in at the foodbank, where someone else shared the gospel and I helped people, and they didn't have to toe any line other than the government gave them... AND that I know this is how most other Christian foodbanks operate... That God knows what I did, the sacrifice involved, and why I did it. On top of that, you don't get to make up stuff that expecting any one thing in return outdoes the cost and effort. That's an incredible cheapening, ungracious, and rude thing to say, let alone wrong. It is an 'opinion' that is to be corrected. It is flat-out wrong. A lie. The greatest gift, more than food or clothing, or shelter, in this world is Jesus. If someone loves another to meet ANY of their needs, and takes time apart from their busy lives, and $ from their own needed funds, it matters not if they want a short gospel message to accompany it. It is the 'reason' they are taking care of other needs. In fact, without Jesus, we wouldn't have been moved. It is the love of Christ that constrains us to act in a loving fashion. Of COURSE it would accompany the very acts belonging to Christ makes possible. You are frankly shallow and rude with your impression and opinion. It is an insult to our persons as well as our actions. "It is no longer I that lives, but Christ that lives in me." Galatians 2:20
It also reflects poorly on your esteem for Christ, which indicates to me that you are in need of knowing Him.

I shared Christ with you without giving you food. It cost me time and effort to do so. I cannot expect more out of you, than you expect of yourself, but I pray you will meet and understand the real love of Christ Jesus our Lord, God, and Savior. -Lon

 

[aikido7]

Not that 'free association' is a harsh accusation, but it wasn't as strong as accusation:



Thank you for the bump. I missed it.


Again, thanks for the bump...had to find it. I do see and understand your observations better. I think I even agree to extent but not sure I can go over the 'radical attack' margin and I've no idea what you are referring to concerning children commanded to murder their parents :noway:



Agreed, but this isn't anti-family. Remember Jesus telling John to take care of His mother?


Again, He didn't hate Mary. Murder parents? Where do you read that?
This, however, isn't anti-family. My daughter left for college, that isn't anti-family.

I see where you are going with this but your statement was 'radical attack' against the family, so asking you about it was necessary, and thanks for taking a lot of time to explain that, sincerely. Children murdering their parents as a command is foreign to me (verse?) and I think I'd be sure, in the future to show that though the gospel does demand family members against family members, it is the opposition to the gospel that makes for that. The two great commands to love God and Love man may indeed come between us and family members. In my thinking, that isn't a "radical attack" but a "radical call" to follow Jesus.


It went back to the OP, concerning whether Christians are authoritarian parents. I think that is missing the mark. God is an authoritarian as Author, Creator, and Sustainer of all men. For me, the end-result of what is proven to be a more altruistic person, overshadows these kinds of studies and necessarily calls them into question, if not outright dismissing them without a hearing. There is no way their end statements that secular upbringing produces a more altruistic citizen. At the end of the day, following the real altruistic sacrifices and $ belies what cannot but be faulty summations from their shoddy or well done research. That is, even if there is a shred of evidentiary there, their conclusions must necessarily be wrong.

Jesus disturbed the world. And part of the world of the first century was the primacy of the family. An aging patriarch had singular power over every other family member. What would happen to the sick or the maimed? He could abuse at will. He could declare who lived and died. Who was worthy for his inheritance. He managed the family household at his own all-too-human whims.

Jesus preached a household of God. Of justice and mercy. A family which was a kingdom of equals.

"Call NO ONE on earth your Father."

The divine family was mirrored in Jesus's own parable of the prodigal.
It was the older brother who felt entitled and was sullen and angry.

The oldest son was usually always favored in the family back then.

 

[Lon]

Jesus disturbed the world. And part of the world of the first century was the primacy of the family. An aging patriarch had singular power over every other family member. What would happen to the sick or the maimed? He could abuse at will. He could declare who lived and died. Who was worthy for his inheritance. He managed the family household at his own all-too-human whims.

Most of us will see this as taking liberty with texts. One of my courses in college was Bible Lands and Customs. It as well as my bible reading (such as "you being carnal fathers know how to give good gifts, moreso your good Father in Heaven") don't agree at all with your findings.

Jesus preached a household of God. Of justice and mercy. A family which was a kingdom of equals.

As I said previously, I think the gospel certainly divides between those who are spiritual, and those who are not. I even think we are seeing it in thread, but I don't think exaggeration of the previous is needed to make that point.

"Call NO ONE on earth your Father."

It can certainly be taken too far, missing the mark/point. John 19:26-27

The divine family was mirrored in Jesus's own parable of the prodigal.
It was the older brother who felt entitled and was sullen and angry.

The oldest son was usually always favored in the family back then.

Primogeniture is still prominent in many societies. Again, while I'm against overtly exaggerating Scripture statements overtly against the family, I agree with you that the gospel calls us to be in the world, but not of it. Sometimes or often, our devotion to Christ does come between earthly concern, but we are given ample feedback from scripture that shows it didn't always happen nor was often/always that extreme.

 

[exminister]

PUREX,

EVERYTHING IN BALANCE

Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go:

and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

15 ¶ Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child;

but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Ephesians 6:4

And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

 

[exminister]

Show on Compassion with a test at the end to see if adults can elect to be kind. Choice of how hot a salsa to give to the person they want to punish.

http://youtu.be/Z3euHIeiQeY

 

[PureX]

I never said anything was "unfair, outrageous and/uncalled for". What I said is that all you do anymore is accuse and condemn, without cause or support.

"Without cause or support". Because of course no criticism can be legitimate, right?

Have you noticed that TOL has been on a banning binge, and that the only people left posting, for the most part, are the people who think like you do? Which are people who I mostly do not agree with. So for the moment, I'm surrounded by antagonists, and it's wearing.

Also, you people tend to seek out the people who won't cow-tow to your ideology and try to drive them away. So that on multiple threads I'm being accosted and insulted by the usual TOL snark-sharks.

So, yes, I am tending to be negative these days. How could it be otherwise? I'm normally pretty calm, and willing to take the time to explain my opinions. But for the moment, I'm surrounded by people who are determined not to consider anything I post except to seek ways of dismissing or insulting me or driving me off. You keep whining about how I won't explain myself, but why would I? You have no intention of even considering any explanation I might give you. Your only goal regarding any explanation I'd give is to attack it, because you think I'm attacking you simply by my disagreeing with you, or by my pointing out that you're wrong about some things.

Which is why you're rapidly becoming no more relevant than posters like The Horn. A bigoted ideologue in league with the accuser of the brethren and an enemy of the truth.

Sure, because anyone who dares to disagree with you and your ideology must be made irrelevant, insulted, and driven off.

 

[ok doser]

So for the moment, I'm surrounded by antagonists, and it's wearing.

:baby:


how about you stop flapping yer gums and listen to what others are telling you?

 

[PureX]

Show on Compassion with a test at the end to see if adults can elect to be kind. Choice of how hot a salsa to give to the person they want to punish.

http://youtu.be/Z3euHIeiQeY

This is an excellent and interesting link, thank you!

 

[PureX]