ECT Moment of Salvation Compared to Water Baptism

[turbosixx]

It's a work of God, not a work that we do.

I would suggest to you that's not what the verse says.

28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?”
They wanted to know what they needed to do to be doing the works of God.

Don't believe me, read some commentaries. Even those who believe salvation without works agree that Jesus is saying this is the work that God requires. I know you believe God requires us to believe.

 

[turbosixx]

In the Bible, God also saved people before a water baptism; yet you preach that it was a mistake if He saved others before they had one.

We have a difference of opinion here. I believe God gave Cornelius the Holy Spirit before water baptism for special purpose and you don't. I will list my argument why I think it was special and you list yours why it wasn't.

1. No other conversion received the Holy Spirit this way, there are about 12 mentioned.
2. This conversion has more verses devoted to it than any other conversion by a long shot.
3. This conversion is debated and mentioned in other chapters.
4. These are the first Gentile converts.
5. They are commanded to be water baptized. No other convert is commanded to be baptized.
6. A vision from God was instrumental in this conversion.

 

[glorydaz]

I would suggest Paul is talking about a specific set of works which are the works of the law of Moses, not works in general. Paul qualifies the works as works of the law in the previous chapter, Rom. 3:28. That is the narrative of the first 11 chapters, saved by faith and not by the law of Moses.

Abraham lived before Moses, before the law of Moses was given. There goes that theory.

So before we discuss the rest of your post, we should address that one, don't you agree?

 

[God's Truth]

We have a difference of opinion here. I believe God gave Cornelius the Holy Spirit before water baptism for special purpose and you don't. I will list my argument why I think it was special and you list yours why it wasn't.

You start off talking hateful and false, so why would I listen to you any further?

Why would it not be special to get saved?

You can't demean any saving, no matter how much you try when trying to prove your false doctrines.

 

[Danoh]

You should try to debate me more rather than taking off and not coming back after I reply to something you say.

Look at the bright of that - your concluding you are so sharp that you ran me off, well, at least that leaves you believing you are all that - not a bad trade off, if you ask me. :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8 towards you.

 

[God's Truth]

It's a work of God, not a work that we do.

Hahahahahahahahaaaa


The work of God is the work they wanted to do. At no time were they told to do nothing; they were told to believe.

 

[God's Truth]

Look at the bright of that - your concluding you are so sharp that you ran me off, well, at least that leaves you believing you are all that - not a bad trade off, if you ask me. :chuckle:

Rom. 5:6-8 towards you.

I want to debate. Try not to twist it.

 

[God's Truth]

Abraham lived before Moses, before the law of Moses was given. There goes that theory.

So before we discuss the rest of your post, we should address that one, don't you agree?

Abraham was the first person to be circumcised. There goes your false theory of do not obey.

 

[God's Truth]

Circumcision of the flesh is one of the works the people used to have to do.

Read further and Paul says 'circumcision' when he speaks of Abraham being saved before or after works---before or after circumcision.


Romans 4:9 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11 And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12 And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.


HOW many TIMES does circumcision have to be mentioned before you understand that it is the WORK that no longer matters?

Abraham had faith BEFORE HE WAS CIRCUMCISED, not before he obeyed anything!

We always have to BELIEVE AND obey God to be saved, but we don't have to be circumcised.

 

[God's Truth]

Paul isn't telling us that the way to be saved is to not obey anymore; Paul is telling us that the works of the law, such as CIRCUMCISION is a work of the law that does not save anymore.

Peter heard of the misunderstanding people have about Paul and what he says about no works. Peter says ignorant and unstable misunderstand and then Peter warns us to obey. Read 2 Peter 3:16 and 17. Read all of 2 Peter 3.

James heard of the misunderstanding people had about Paul too. James calls the people foolish for misunderstanding Paul and thinking we are saved by believing and making sure we do nothing.

 

[God's Truth]

Anyone still not sure that people misunderstand that Paul is saying to believe and do nothing?

Then tell me what it is that Peter says people are misunderstanding about Paul.

 

[turbosixx]

Abraham lived before Moses, before the law of Moses was given. There goes that theory.

I agree, that's why Paul uses Abraham as an example to show them that righteousness can be found apart from the law of Moses and circumcision.

The context of the first part of Romans is the law of Moses verses the law of faith.
Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.

 

[turbosixx]

You start off talking hateful

How so?

 

[God's Truth]

I agree, that's why Paul uses Abraham as an example to show them that righteousness can be found apart from the law of Moses and circumcision.

The context of the first part of Romans is the law of Moses verses the law of faith.
Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.

Abraham was the first to be circumcised.

 

[God's Truth]

How so?

You say things that I did not say. All savings are special. You try to make Cornelius' as more special. If his was more special, then why don't you believe that others can be saved that way?

Why didn't God save him and give him the Holy Spirit after a water baptism instead of before as He did?

Now you refuse to talk to me about it.

Why is that?

It shows you are in falseness.

Tell me that I was not saved by Jesus when I said I was, before a water baptism; or say I was saved after my Mormon water baptism, or my 2 month old Catholic baptism. Speak up teacher. You want to go against me for preaching a person can be saved before a water baptism. You have three choices now. Let's see if you can judge me correctly. I was not saved. I was saved before a water baptism. I was saved because of a Catholic and Mormon baptism.

Which would you like to choose?

 

[turbosixx]

Abraham was the first to be circumcised.

Yep

 

[turbosixx]

Why didn't God save him and give him the Holy Spirit after a water baptism instead of before as He did?

That's my question to you.

 

[turbosixx]

Tell me that I was not saved by Jesus when I said I was, before a water baptism; or say I was saved after my Mormon water baptism, or my 2 month old Catholic baptism. Speak up teacher. You want to go against me for preaching a person can be saved before a water baptism. You have three choices now. Let's see if you can judge me correctly. I was not saved. I was saved before a water baptism. I was saved because of a Catholic and Mormon baptism.

Which would you like to choose?

Paul still had his sins before he washed them away in baptism. Are you better than Paul?

 

[God's Truth]

Paul still had his sins before he washed them away in baptism. Are you better than Paul?

You acknowledge that Cornelius and his whole household was saved before their water baptism. So why try to make your point by trying to put me down to defend your beliefs? It is a sign that you are in falseness.

Paul had the Holy Spirit BEFORE he was water baptized. The scripture says so plainly. Why don't you see it?

The water baptism is a ceremony of what has already happened.

 

[God's Truth]

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.