Mid Acts Disponsationalism

[Tambora]

Yeah, that isn't what I'm talking about and I'm pretty sure it isn't what Clete is talking about, either.

I know what Clete is talking about.
Clete has made it clear that folks are saved by grace and not of their works.

Now .....
The fact still remains that while we receive eternal life by grace, and not our works; we still live in a society that needs protection from wicked deeds.

So when a child molester molests a child ....

.... what should we as a society do?
Telling the molester that they are saved by grace will do nothing to protect children from bodily and mental harm by him.

And he goes on to molest another.

And another

And another

How many more of those little faces do you want to see?
70 X 70?

[


and going and going and going.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lol, if but for a moment, we've at least derailed Jerry's attempt to derail this thread down that dark, neurotic hallway of his pet peeves

How am I derailing this thread since I responded to what you said on this thread?:

That only the righteousness of God in His Grace without the Law unto all, and upon all them that believe in His Son’s fully satisfying sacrifice have hope for the very means of liberty from the bondage of sin, through the newness of life made possible by and in His Son.

You finally got something right so from these words we can understand that the righteousness of God apart from the law comes to all who believed, including the Jews who received the epistles of Peter.

They believed in the Lord Jesus' fully satisfying sacrifice so they too received the imputed righteousness of God which is apart from the law:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Ro.3:21-22).​

You deny what Paul said there because you say that this righteousness which is apart from the law was only imputed to some who believe but not all who believe.

Who taught you that you can pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you will not believe?

Once again you are making excuses to account for the fact that you do not even attempt to defend your idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

It is you who is neurotic, not me, since you expect others to believe your ideas even though you refuse to address the Scriptures which contradict your ideas.

 

[Clete]

That is one amazingly confused post.

You clearly do not understand Paul's teaching about grace.

Heir is NOT proclaiming lawlessness (as was also falsely claimed of Paul).

That is what she's proclaiming at least tacitly!

She want me to treat homos as though they are under grace!

Grace DOES NOT apply to the unbeliever and even if it did, being forgiven of the sin does not release you from the just penalty of your crime under the just laws of the government. God instituted human government when Noah landed the ark. The dispensation of human government has been in effect ever since. That's why government are a good thing so long as their laws are just. God did not end human government nor did he change what justice is when He began the dispensation of grace. But you'd never know that by talking to heir! According to her, no one is guilty of sin any longer because there is no more sin because Jesus wiped it all out on the cross. Utter stupidity!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

That is what she's proclaiming at least tacitly!

She want me to treat homos as though they are under grace!

Grace DOES NOT apply to the unbeliever and even if it did, being forgiven of the sin does not release you from the just penalty of your crime under the just laws of the government. God instituted human government when Noah landed the ark. The dispensation of human government has been in effect ever since. That's why government are a good thing so long as their laws are just. God did not end human government nor did he change what justice is when He began the dispensation of grace. But you'd never know that by talking to heir! According to her, no one is guilty of sin any longer because there is no more sin because Jesus wiped it all out on the cross. Utter stupidity!

Resting in Him,
Clete

You're merely "Misinterpreting" Heir. Needlessly Defaming her. ALL
of Man-kinds sins were taken care of on the cross. However, only
those who hear the Grace Message and place their faith in Christ
will benefit from His death and Resurrection. Even a Homosexual
can hear the Message and place his/her faith in Christ and be
sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ
by the Holy Spirit.

They also receive the righteousness of Christ. Even the "Gays" that
you hate. If I might add, I do not believe that a "Holy Spirit" filled
person will continue to live a homosexual lifestyle. Nor will a person
continue in drunkenness, adultery, fornication, etc. A True Believer
is a new creation in Christ. The Grace Message needs to go out to
gays, adulterers, drunkards, fornicators, etc. They come to Christ,
just as they are. The indwelling Holy Spirit will help them to become
conformed into the image of Christ.

You can't just hate one particular sinner, and give a pass to other
sinners. We've all sinned and become unrighteous before God.
That's why Christ came.

 

[Clete]

Look you guys, this isn't that complex. Its as simple as understanding that not all sin is the same and that some sins rise to the level of crimes. Not all crimes are the same either. Some crimes rise to the level of capital crimes. All crimes are sins and any sin separates a man from his Creator.

The cross was about paying the price that justice demands for all sins, including the capital crime sort of sin but it was NOT about criminal justice. One place where people make a mistake is to think that criminal justice within the context of a human government has to do with paying the same debt that Jesus paid on the cross - it doesn't.

When a murderer is executed for his crime, he doesn't stand before God with the scales of justice balanced. He is still guilty before God because crimes and criminal justice have to do with the institution of human government which God began with Noah when he landed the ark and God said "If a man sheds another man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed." Criminal justice has to do with maintaining a civil society where people can live in peace and safety and God gives us a complete criminal justice system in the bible. All we have to do is read it to know what a just criminal justice system looks like. But we don't like to do that because its to mean!

Now, take your garden variety street thug who gets into a fight over his crack and ends up shooting his best friend in the back. Lets say before he even gets caught he shows up at church because his grandmother is smart enough to know when something's wrong and so she drug him there by his hair. Lets say that the preaching was particularly effective that Sunday and our murderer gets saved.

Should he be executed for his crime?

YES!!!

He aught to insist the he be executed! And if he's genuinely repentant he may do just that, or at the least not fight it.

Why?

Because criminal justice isn't about the murder's eternal soul its about everyone else's! Criminal justice is about teaching a whole society right from wrong.

So what should the Christian do about criminals?

Three things. In order of importance (based on the number of people effected by each point)....

1. Advocate that the criminal behavior remain criminalized or be recriminalized.

2. Develop a strong social stigma against the behavior.

3. Seek individual repentance and salvation.

None of which is remotely possible in a world where I get judged WAY more harshly by nearly every Christian than any of them would ever judge the most vile of God hating homosexuals. Christians today, as a rule, have it completely backward. They put the criminal under grace and judge the believer as guilty at the first hint of someone's feeling getting hurt. It's madness!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Revelation 20:13 states: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in
it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and
they were judged every man according to their works.

Why does it not say, "SINS" instead of "WORKS?" Because, Christ took care
of ALL the sins of mankind on the cross. Therefore, the "Non-Believers" will
stand before God the Father and be judged by their works. The True Believers
will stand before Christ (God the Son) and be given rewards for what they did
while in the flesh.

The Non-Believers will be cast into, "The Lake of Fire" with the devil and his
angels.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Look you guys, this isn't that complex. Its as simple as understanding that not all sin is the same and that some sins rise to the level of crimes. Not all crimes are the same either. Some crimes rise to the level of capital crimes. All crimes are sins and any sin separates a man from his Creator.

The cross was about paying the price that justice demands for all sins, including the capital crime sort of sin but it was NOT about criminal justice. One place where people make a mistake is to think that criminal justice within the context of a human government has to do with paying the same debt that Jesus paid on the cross - it doesn't.

When a murderer is executed for his crime, he doesn't stand before God with the scales of justice balanced. He is still guilty before God because crimes and criminal justice have to do with the institution of human government which God began with Noah when he landed the ark and God said "If a man sheds another man's blood, by man his blood shall be shed." Criminal justice has to do with maintaining a civil society where people can live in peace and safety and God gives us a complete criminal justice system in the bible. All we have to do is read it to know what a just criminal justice system looks like. But we don't like to do that because its to mean!

Now, take your garden variety street thug who gets into a fight over his crack and ends up shooting his best friend in the back. Lets say before he even gets caught he shows up at church because his grandmother is smart enough to know when something's wrong and so she drug him there by his hair. Lets say that the preaching was particularly effective that Sunday and our murderer gets saved.

Should he be executed for his crime?

YES!!!

He aught to insist the he be executed! And if he's genuinely repentant he may do just that, or at the least not fight it.

Why?

Because criminal justice isn't about the murder's eternal soul its about everyone else's! Criminal justice is about teaching a whole society right from wrong.

So what should the Christian do about criminals?

Three things. In order of importance (based on the number of people effected by each point)....

1. Advocate that the criminal behavior remain criminalized or be recriminalized.

2. Develop a strong social stigma against the behavior.

3. Seek individual repentance and salvation.

None of which is remotely possible in a world where I get judged WAY more harshly by nearly every Christian than any of them would ever judge the most vile of God hating homosexuals. Christians today, as a rule, have it completely backward. They put the criminal under grace and judge the believer as guilty at the first hint of someone's feeling getting hurt. It's madness!

Resting in Him,
Clete

You're relating to the crimes done against Society, whereas, I'm
relating to the sins of mankind according to the Spiritual realm.

 

[patrick jane]

Revelation 20:13 states: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in
it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and
they were judged every man according to their works.

Why does it not say, "SINS" instead of "WORKS?" Because, Christ took care
of ALL the sins of mankind on the cross. Therefore, the "Non-Believers" will
stand before God the Father and be judged by their works. The True Believers
will stand before Christ (God the Son) and be given rewards for what they did
while in the flesh.

The Non-Believers will be cast into, "The Lake of Fire" with the devil and his
angels.

so you get rewarded for you good works ? what do you get ?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

ALL sin is forgivable. If you don't believe that, then you're not a True Believer.
ALL men can receive eternal life through Christ.

 

[Clete]

You're merely "Misinterpreting" Heir. Needlessly Defaming her. ALL
of Man-kinds sins were taken care of on the cross. However, only
those who hear the Grace Message and place their faith in Christ
will benefit from His death and Resurrection. Even a Homosexual
can hear the Message and place his/her faith in Christ and be
sealed, indwelt and baptized (not by water) into the Body of Christ
by the Holy Spirit.

I've said exactly this and heir still attacks me.

They also receive the righteousness of Christ. Even the "Gays" that
you hate. If I might add, I do not believe that a "Holy Spirit" filled
person will continue to live a homosexual lifestyle. Nor will a person
continue in drunkenness, adultery, fornication, etc. A True Believer
is a new creation in Christ. The Grace Message needs to go out to
gays, adulterers, drunkards, fornicators, etc. They come to Christ,
just as they are. The indwelling Holy Spirit will help them to become
conformed into the image of Christ.

This is irrelevant!

Paul himself specifically tells us to excommunicate sexually immoral believers (Paul didn't seem to think the two were mutually exclusive). He himself said that he had turned two people "over to Satan" so that they could learn not to blaspheme.

You can't just hate one particular sinner, and give a pass to other
sinners. We've all sinned and become unrighteous before God.
That's why Christ came.

And so you to believe that we should decriminalize murder just so long as the murderer comes to Christ.

Because, after all, who are we to judge? "We've all sinned and become unrighteous before God."

So help me! I cannot understand how people cannot think this through!

I know you're going to deny advocating the decriminalization of murder so why don't you just explain to me what it is we are supposed to with murderers. What do you do when the pastor of a church gets caught in adultery and ends up murdering his lover's husband?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

so you get rewarded for you good works ? what do you get ?

2 Corinthians 5:10 states: "For we must all appear before the
judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things
done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be
good or bad."

That verse speaks to "True Believers."

 

[Tambora]

You can't just hate one particular sinner, and give a pass to other
sinners.

We do in society, GM, as we should.

When a murderer stands before a judge in a court of law, we don't want the judge saying, "I can't sentence you unless I sentence everyone, because everyone sins".

You don't let grace believers off the hook for bad behavior in society. Bad behavior should be confronted in society whether you are a grace believer or not.

 

[Clete]

You're relating to the crimes done against Society, whereas, I'm
relating to the sins of mankind according to the Spiritual realm.

All crimes are sins Grosnick (actual crimes not the stupidity that is called criminal behavior in most countries today).

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I've said exactly this and heir still attacks me.


This is irrelevant!

Paul himself specifically tells us to excommunicate sexually immoral believers (Paul didn't seem to think the two were mutually exclusive). He himself said that he had turned two people "over to Satan" so that they could learn not to blaspheme.


And so you to believe that we should decriminalize murder just so long as the murderer comes to Christ.

Because, after all, who are we to judge? "We've all sinned and become unrighteous before God."

So help me! I cannot understand how people cannot think this through!

I know you're going to deny advocating the decriminalization of murder so why don't you just explain to me what it is we are supposed to with murderers. What do you do when the pastor of a church gets caught in adultery and ends up murdering his lover's husband?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You're still talking about worldly matters and I'm speaking about
Spiritual matters. Get it? Heir is one of the most Scripturally
sound posters on TOL. Yet, you seek to do battle with her?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Glorydaz and Tam are two other posters I respect, as well.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

By the way, Clete, I believe in the "Death Penalty."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

All crimes are sins Grosnick (actual crimes not the stupidity that is called criminal behavior in most countries today).

Your point?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Criminal's need to be confined in prison Clete, how's that?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Lol, if but for a moment, we've at least derailed Jerry's attempt to derail this thread down that dark, neurotic hallway of his pet peeves

How am I derailing this thread since I responded to what you said on this thread?:

That only the righteousness of God in His Grace without the Law unto all, and upon all them that believe in His Son’s fully satisfying sacrifice have hope for the very means of liberty from the bondage of sin, through the newness of life made possible by and in His Son.

You finally got something right so from these words we can understand that the righteousness of God apart from the law comes to all who believed, including the Jews who received the epistles of Peter.

They believed in the Lord Jesus' fully satisfying sacrifice so they too received the imputed righteousness of God which is apart from the law:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe" (Ro.3:21-22).​

You deny what Paul said there because you say that this righteousness which is apart from the law was only imputed to some who believe but not all who believe.

Who taught you that you can pick and choose which verses you will believe and which ones you will not believe?

Once again you are making excuses to account for the fact that you do not even attempt to defend your idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved apart from works.

It is you who is neurotic, not me, since you expect others to believe your ideas even though you refuse to address the Scriptures which contradict your ideas.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

We do in society, GM, as we should.

When a murderer stands before a judge in a court of law, we don't want the judge saying, "I can't sentence you unless I sentence everyone, because everyone sins".

You don't let grace believers off the hook for bad behavior in society. Bad behavior should be confronted in society whether you are a grace believer or not.

I'm addressing the Spiritual realm, not the worldly Tam.