Mexicans are Dumb and Will Destroy America?

[annabenedetti]

This is true.
AnnaBenedetti didn't evaluate the claim based on facts and statistics, nor did most of the people in this thread. Instead, the focus shifted to the obvious racism of the person who created the thread.

Because the person who made the thread made his "obvious racism" so obvious.

I think more evaluation of Richwine's conclusions would be a good thing, and early on in the thread, I asked you if you accepted his scholarship without question.
You seemed to think that a Harvard dissertation was pretty much enough for you, because it's "kind of a big thing."

 

[Traditio]

Because the person who made the thread made his "obvious racism" so obvious.

I think more evaluation of Richwine's conclusions would be a good thing, and early on in the thread, I asked you if you accepted his scholarship without question. You seemed to think that a Harvard dissertation is pretty much enough for you, because it's "kind of a big thing."

Yes, ceteris paribus (all other things being equal). Unless there's other scholarship which says the opposite.

 

[Traditio]

:nono: You're your own worst enemy Kid....When/If you go down it won't be the "Mexicans" or the "Blacks" who do it to you...It'll be right in your own back-yard.

....and I'm willing to bet that, even with all your learning, you won't really even understand why. :sigh:

I don't want to rule it out as a possibility. Who knows what the future may hold? For example: suppose that there's a major war, and I have to fail someone arbitrarily, because people are needed for a draft, and my job is on the line. Someone must fail. Given the choice between a white student and a minority student, and suppose that all of the other circumstances are entirely equal...?

Their in-class performance is entirely equal.
They're both of the same gender.
Their socioeconomic status is the same.
Their moral character is equal.

You get the idea.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do. What would you do in that case? :idunno:

 

[zippy2006]

There seems to be excessive emotional involvement in this thread that is lacking an objective basis and causing unnecessary drama. Let's try to look at this statement without that baggage:

I don't hold any obviously heretical beliefs (for example, the intrinsic inferiority of certain races of people), then so what?

This isn't actually clear. When I get home I could quote-mine a few instances, but do you think it is true? You claim that you do not treat them as inferior in a way they would notice. Do you think of them as inferior?

Presumably you are saying that when approached by a white man and a black man successively, you would think the black man to be inferior in one way or another. But you are saying that this reaction is somewhat justified since it is not based in race per se, but rather based in probabilistic cultural behavior that is correlated to but not caused by race. I can sympathize with this sort of argument. Do you think you edge closer to strict racism at times?

:e4e:

 

[The Barbarian]

Interestingly enough they said the same thing about the Irish...and the Germans....and the Italians...etc...etc.. lain:

Exactly. And they probably were not as intelligent; lacking the educational and social environment of the United States, they likely didn't have IQs as high as natives.

But those groups were doggedly determined to better themselves, forming their own schools when they couldn't be a fair shake in the existing ones. And it worke. Not surprisingly, I see that same kind of determination in Mexican immigrants, who are working to see that their children will be better off than they are.

One thing that brings this into sharp focus is the Yerkes IQ testing for the army. In WWI, all inductees were given intelligence tests, a huge body of data. And people made much of whites being slightly more intelligent than blacks, considering it to be genetic. What they didn't say was that the same data showed northern blacks to be "genetically more intelligent" than southern whites.

If social and educational factors are that much more effective in determining intelligence, it would seem to be foolish to argue for a racist interpretation.

 

[Granite]

Just when you think Trad can't make a bigger fool of himself, he...does.

 

[Buzzword]

You know what, Trad? I've been subjected to bigotry because of my religion, by supposed 'Christians.' I've been the subject of vicious, in-my-face bigotry by someone who thought I was in an inter-racial relationship, because I was at the store with my sons and their friends who were black and the white supremacist assumed they were all my kids. That was an eye-opening experience for me and for my children. Honestly, I don't know what it was like for their friends, I tried to leave the door open for them to talk about it, but they didn't.

Your views tell me that racism is indeed alive and well in this country in a way I thought long on its way out. How naive of me. But I have to thank you, because if my anger at what you have to say is only a millionth of the anger felt by those who because of the color or their skin have been oppressed by your kind of bigotry all their lives and felt its multi-generational pressure handed down to them by generations past, it will have been a good experience for me.

"Racism makes sense"? If that's true, you haven't really changed your views about Hitler at all - you're fooling only yourself.

Not enough rep or Amens to equal the quality of this post.

That's the issue. The evidence shows increases in intelligence for the children and grandchildren of immigrants. When you raise kids in an affluent culture, with high standards of education, they tend to become more intelligent. Go figure.

The hereditarian view of intelligence has taken a lot of painful hits recently, including the classic studies of Cyril Burt, who seems to have just made up a great deal of his twin data.

There's something to inherited intelligence, but mostly, it seems to be the result of lots of mental stimulation in early childhood, and challenging educational experiences.

Apparently, intelligence is the result of the brain making new connections in response to stimulation.
http://www.unisci.com/stories/20021/0117021.htm

So, is it all environmental? Nope. Some brains can make new connections better than others. The point, of course, is that many of those presumed "low IQ" Mexicans are better at this than many Anglos. It's why one of the main complaints against Hispanics by nativists, is they are getting to go to public schools.

I didn't say the evidence he presented couldn't be disproved.

I'm saying if he provided evidence from sources which were at least reputable at the time, and drew a conclusion which could be treated as logical and rational, then let him do what he will.

Doesn't make his conclusions valid or the evidence he used untouchable, but it does explain how it passed the dissertation defense.

Just when you think Trad can't make a bigger fool of himself, he...does.

Always.

 

[Traditio]

You claim that you do not treat them as inferior in a way they would notice. Do you think of them as inferior?

Presumably you are saying that when approached by a white man and a black man successively, you would think the black man to be inferior in one way or another.

This is a really general question. It would depend on the white guy and black guy in question. I will say, though, that if I see a black guy acting/dressing in a stereotypical way, if I read in the news that a black guy or hispanic committed some sort of robbery or other violent crime, or if I see a black person or hispanic being lazy or doing his/her job poorly...

Suffice to say, I'm pretty sure you can guess what I think at that point.

But you are saying that this reaction is somewhat justified since it is not based in race per se, but rather based in probabilistic cultural behavior that is correlated to but not caused by race. I can sympathize with this sort of argument.

Also, I'd like to point out that it's a lot less theoretical/speculative than a lot of people might try to make out. I don't have a coherent racist "system." That's just not it. I just tend to express, in various situations, a set of attitudes and behaviors that most people would consider racist.

I mean, it's not a matter of:

"2+2=4."
"Plotinus held x views on the nature of the soul."
"Black people are inferior."

It's more a matter of:

"I like Chinese food."
"I dislike certain kinds of cheese."
"I prefer the appearance of my face after I've shaved."
"I have a general preference against black people."

This is why I think I feel justified in saying that I don't hold any obviously heretical beliefs in terms of race.

Do you think you edge closer to strict racism at times?

I certainly hope not. "Strict racism" is heretical. In all cases, I affirm the following: whatever I may be predisposed to believe, whatever may seem true to me in this or that case, if the Heirarchical Church has pronounced otherwise, then my assent goes to teaching of the Holy Catholic Church.

Example: I have a general dislike of hispanics (not to say that I won't hang out with hispanics on a case by case basis). Am I voting for a politician because he promises to close the borders? No. To my knowledge, the bishops of the Catholic Church tell us that people should be free to migrate, and they tend to be against super conservative views on immigration/border control.

 

[Buzzword]

On a side note, the most insidious form of racism I've ever experienced was from a couple of white classmates in high school.

I had just started dating a black girl (we ended up dating for nearly three years), and these two preppy.....ladies....asked:
"Is she your girlfriend?"
"Yep!"
"Aww you're doing the interracial thing! That's so cute!"

 

[Ktoyou]

Nothing funny about the food though...It's totally awesome. I never really knew how to Bar-B-Que until I went to some Mexican family get togethers. :TomO:


...the stores are cool also. Lots of good stuff and usually at a much better price than the big chain stores. :think:

The concept. zoo is able to pull such a dry humour, it seems like it is not meant ti be funny, and maybe that is nit his intent, yet the more I read it, the funnier it seemed.

I imagine Latinos running after Trad, trying to feed him fish tacos!

I would be easting them, myself and asking to pass the Mescal, at ine time I would, and did.

 

[Traditio]

On a side note, the most insidious form of racism I've ever experienced was from a couple of white classmates in high school.

I had just started dating a black girl (we ended up dating for nearly three years), and these two preppy.....ladies....asked:
"Is she your girlfriend?"
"Yep!"
"Aww you're doing the interracial thing! That's so cute!"

[sarcasm] That's terrible. They should have been kicked out of school. And the thought that they might actually have a career later? Oh, how bad that seems. [/sarcasm]

 

[The Berean]

The Mexicans™ can't be stopped Trad!

.

 

[The Barbarian]

You know, my AP classes are awfully loaded with Hispanics. For an obvious reason. The parents are pushing their kids to succeed. And a lot of Anglo parents just take a good future as a birthright for Americans.

And the Hispanic kids are mostly into engineering or business as majors. They mean to succeed. Sure, lots of them are mired in the low expectations of parents who never saw much possibility for their kids. But not as many as you might think.

 

[TomO]

I don't want to rule it out as a possibility. Who knows what the future may hold? For example: suppose that there's a major war, and I have to fail someone arbitrarily, because people are needed for a draft, and my job is on the line. Someone must fail. Given the choice between a white student and a minority student, and suppose that all of the other circumstances are entirely equal...?

Their in-class performance is entirely equal.
They're both of the same gender.
Their socioeconomic status is the same.
Their moral character is equal.

You get the idea.

To be honest, I'm not sure what I'd do. What would you do in that case? :idunno:

I would get fired. lain:

I'm sorry that your sense of ethics is so weak that you would not do the same.

 

[Traditio]

I would get fired. lain:

Yeah, resignation or getting fired is an option, I suppose.

I'm sorry that your sense of ethics is so weak that you would not do the same.

I'm not sure what I would do. It's a hard case. Is there an ethical answer? Almost certainly. Is the answer an easy one in practice? Almost certainly not.

I would have a strong temptation to fail the minority student.

 

[TomO]

Is there an ethical answer? Almost certainly. Is the answer an easy one in practice? Almost certainly not.

lain: If it were easy then it would be expedient rather than ethical.

You will find as you progress in life that although the two terms are not necessarily mutually exclusive of one another, in practice they quite often are.

I have long suspected that this is by design.

 

[zoo22]

Yeah, resignation or getting fired is an option, I suppose.



I'm not sure what I would do. It's a hard case. Is there an ethical answer? Almost certainly. Is the answer an easy one in practice? Almost certainly not.

I would have a strong temptation to fail the minority student.

You're making up ludicrous hypothetical situations where you imagine that:

"Their in-class performance is entirely equal.
Their socioeconomic status is the same.
Their moral character is equal."

All of these things could be so entirely equal, but you'd find inequality based on ethnicity. Look at yourself.

 

[Ktoyou]

You're making up ludicrous hypothetical situations where you imagine that:

"Their in-class performance is entirely equal.
Their socioeconomic status is the same.
Their moral character is equal."

All of these things could be so entirely equal, but you'd find inequality based on ethnicity. Look at yourself.

Zoo, I agree. yet does not top your post about understanding him, yet you wish he us was ...you know :rotfl:

 

[Traditio]

You're making up ludicrous hypothetical situations where you imagine that:

"Their in-class performance is entirely equal.
Their socioeconomic status is the same.
Their moral character is equal."

All of these things could be so entirely equal, but you'd find inequality based on ethnicity. Look at yourself.

I'd like to point out that the general premise isn't that ludicruous. My roommate told me a couple times that, back in the Vietnam war, there actually were quotas. Professors had to fail x number of students out of each class. The reason? The college drop-outs would then have to go to Vietnam.

Suppose that this happened, and I were in a similar situation. Can I honestly say that I am sure that race wouldn't play a factor?

I'm afraid that I can't entirely rule it out.

If someone HAS to fail because someone HAS to go to war...? :idunno:

That said, what are the odds of that actually happening again?

I'm just saying. That's why I say "chances are" and "87% chance." It could happen. :idunno:

I can totally see myself making most of the class grade based on a final oral exam...and the minority students getting a REALLY difficult oral exam.

Question for white student: Who wrote the Republic?
Question for black student: What does Kant say about the relationship between life and desire on that one footnote that we didn't talk about?

Note: I'm not saying that I should do this in that case. I'm not saying that it would be fair. I'm just saying: I would have a strong temptation to fail the minority student(s).

 

[Alate_One]

I would have a strong temptation to fail the minority student.

At least you're honest with your tendencies but really I find this ludicrous.

From personal experience having taught at the university level for five years now, in a very diverse university setting, very frequently my top scoring students are non-white.

Why do you think someone's skin pigmentation has anything to do with their actual intelligence (as opposed to IQ) is beyond me.