Mexicans are Dumb and Will Destroy America?

[The Barbarian]

He should be able to say whatever in his dissertation, as long as he supports it with objective evidence and sound reasoning.

That's the issue. The evidence shows increases in intelligence for the children and grandchildren of immigrants. When you raise kids in an affluent culture, with high standards of education, they tend to become more intelligent. Go figure.

The hereditarian view of intelligence has taken a lot of painful hits recently, including the classic studies of Cyril Burt, who seems to have just made up a great deal of his twin data.

There's something to inherited intelligence, but mostly, it seems to be the result of lots of mental stimulation in early childhood, and challenging educational experiences.

Apparently, intelligence is the result of the brain making new connections in response to stimulation.
http://www.unisci.com/stories/20021/0117021.htm

So, is it all environmental? Nope. Some brains can make new connections better than others. The point, of course, is that many of those presumed "low IQ" Mexicans are better at this than many Anglos. It's why one of the main complaints against Hispanics by nativists, is they are getting to go to public schools.

 

[Traditio]

You know what, Trad? I've been subjected to bigotry because of my religion, by supposed 'Christians.' I've been the subject of vicious, in-my-face bigotry by someone who thought I was in an inter-racial relationship, because I was at the store with my sons and their friends who were black and the white supremacist assumed they were all my kids. That was an eye-opening experience for me and for my children. Honestly, I don't know what it was like for their friends, I tried to leave the door open for them to talk about it, but they didn't.

I'm not a fan of black-white interracial dating/marriage. Not gonna lie: whenever I see an attractive white woman with a black man, it just gets on my nerves. You know the law of supply and demand, right?

Your views tell me that racism is indeed alive and well in this country in a way I thought long on its way out. How naive of me. But I have to thank you, because if my anger at what you have to say is only a millionth of the anger felt by those who because of the color or their skin have been oppressed by your kind of bigotry all their lives and felt its multi-generational pressure handed down to them by generations past, it will have been a good experience for me.

"Racism makes sense"? If that's true, you haven't really changed your views about Hitler at all - you're fooling only yourself.

AnnaBenedetti, I'm honestly not sure what it is that angers you so much. I'm not part of a racist organization. I don't go out of my way to make the lives of minorities more difficult.

When I lived with those hispanic, did I probably make their lives more difficult? Probably. I got most of those roommates kicked out.

But not because they were hispanic. Because they didn't clean up after themselves. Because they drank and played loud music late at night. Because they played beer pong until 3 AM or later and it kept me awake at night. Because they apparently liked to shout for no apparent reason. Because they were violent. Because one of them kept trying to sneak into my bed. Because they wouldn't stop messing with my belongings.

I've had black roommates before. Wasn't a huge fan of either one. But not because they were black. Because one insisted on having the overhead light on after I'd gone to bed, and because the other talked on his phone and did all other sorts of distracting nonsense after I'd gone to bed.

I don't vote for racist politicians on the grounds that they're racist, and quite frankly, immigration generally isn't even on my political radar. It simply isn't an issue that I care about that much or take into consideration when evaluating a politician.

Fact is, I didn't even vote in the last presidential campaign.

What is it that angers you so much? Chances are, I'll never meet your minority relatives. And even if I did, they would have no clue that I've more than likely formed a judgment about them before they've spoken to me. I would be just as polite to than as to anyone.

For example, once this black guy in a philosophy course I was auditing insisted on talking to me. Did I call him the n-word? Nope. Did I tell him to go bugger off? Nope. Was he clearly a middle class black guy who more than likely came from the suburbs? Probably. Was there any chance of the two of us hanging out or becoming friends? Unlikely.

For a number of reasons, his skin color being only one part of my total unwillingness seriously to give him the time of day.

Was I exceedingly impolite? No. I just lectured him on how terrible the job market is, and why he's going to be screwed when he graduates, since he'll have majored in philosophy at a small school that nobody knows or cares about. :chuckle:

But you know what? If you saw me and didn't know me, chances are, you'd have formed a judgment about me before I've spoken to you. We do this all the time based on any number of factors.

If a random male walks up and starts talking to me about x topic, he's going to get a lot less of my time and patience (especially if I don't care about the topic) than if a woman does it, and an attractive woman would get more of my time than an ugly one.

I don't think that I'm saying anything outlandish. I'm not saying that all black people are stupid, or that all Mexicans are. I'm saying that, at least in certain areas, black people and hispanics collectively tend to display undesirable (relative to me, of course) characteristics. So, as a general rule, I tend to avoid those people unless there are compelling reasons to do otherwise.

Especially when coupled with other characteristics like undesirable modes of dress and speech.

And if the skin color is associated with those characteristics? Of course I'm going to walk away thinking: "Just another [n-word]."

Not to mention that, when I do talk to black people over an extended period of time, I eventually like to talk about how much I love fried chicken and watermelon...and just laugh and laugh on the inside when they agree with me that fried chicken and watermelon are delicious.

But here's my question: So what?

If I don't go out of my way to make peoples' lives difficult, and if I don't go out of my way to be rude to people based on the color of their skin, and I don't hold any obviously heretical beliefs (for example, the intrinsic inferiority of certain races of people), then so what?

Have I joked about arbitrarily failing black and mexican students when I start teaching? Of course. Am I actually going to do that? No.

All that I'm saying is that a multicultural society isn't something that I personally find appealing.

So what? What is it precisely that you find so repulsive?

 

[Traditio]

Not to mention that, often enough, these biases actually do tend to be true in the concrete cases. To paraphrase my stepfather (who is a police officer): if you don't profile, you're not being an effective police officer. :idunno:

 

[zoo22]

If I don't go out of my way to make peoples' lives difficult, and if I don't go out of my way to be rude to people based on the color of their skin, and I don't hold any obviously heretical beliefs (for example, the intrinsic inferiority of certain races of people), then so what?

That might be different. But obviously that's not the case. This thread exists.

 

[Traditio]

That might be different. But obviously that's not the case. This thread exists.

When I started the thread, it wasn't about immigration. It was about how a scholar ended up having to resign because of things that he wrote in his dissertation.

The original news article didn't catch my attention because it was about immigration. It caught my attention because a scholar was forced to resign over something really dumb.

 

[Traditio]

Nothing funny about the food though...It's totally awesome. I never really knew how to Bar-B-Que until I went to some Mexican family get togethers. :TomO:


...the stores are cool also. Lots of good stuff and usually at a much better price than the big chain stores. :think:

Food tends to be one of the few cultural differences that don't tend to get on my nerves. Do I strongly dislike Arabs? Yup. Will I eat at a Mediterranean restaurant? Yup.

Am I ever going to become close friends with an Asian male? Probably not. Would I frequent a chinese restaurant most days of the week if it weren't for 1. the fact that it's probably unhealthy to do so and 2. the expensive? You betcha.

 

[zoo22]

When I started the thread, it wasn't about immigration. It was about how a scholar ended up having to resign because of things that he wrote in his dissertation.

The original news article didn't catch my attention because it was about immigration. It caught my attention because a scholar was forced to resign over something really dumb.

So what? Are you really that dense? So you started a thread that wasn't about immigration before you began in calling black people N*****s and complaining about how Mexicans listen to music too loud? Your intent in starting the thread doesn't change what you've wound up saying and doing.

 

[Traditio]

So what? Are you really that dense? So you started a thread that wasn't about immigration before you began in calling black people ******* and complaining about how Mexicans listen to music too loud? Your intent in starting the thread doesn't change what you've wound up saying and doing.

The total chain of events:

1. Thread gets started accusing racists of having low IQs. I in turn point out that not all racists have low IQs. I am pretty intelligent.

2. I start this thread.

3. AnnaBenedetti accuses me of having racist intentions in starting this thread.

4. You bring up my former neo-Nazi tendencies.

5. I only brought all of this up in order to point out that my "racism" today isn't the neo-Naziism that I used to hold. It's nothing like it at all, and quite frankly, I don't think it's that big a deal.

 

[zoo22]

The total chain of events:

1. Thread gets started accusing racists of having low IQs. I in turn point out that not all racists have low IQs. I am pretty intelligent.

2. I start this thread.

3. AnnaBenedetti accuses me of having racist intentions in starting this thread.

4. You bring up my former racism.

5. I only brought all of this up in order to point out that my "racism" today isn't the racism I used to have.

Sure, Trad. That's the "total chain of events."

Well, keep that racism of yours in quotation marks if you want. But it doesn't change reality.

 

[Town Heretic]

The total chain of events:

1. Thread gets started accusing racists of having low IQs. I in turn point out that not all racists have low IQs. I am pretty intelligent.

You've ducked me pretty consistently...I suspect in part because I'm an older school Southern male calling you on trying to lay this at our door and because you don't have a rational, reasonable answer for my noting what it is your humor and ease celebrates, is rooted in. So you rest on how you feel about it, which doesn't address how you should be thinking.

5. I only brought all of this up in order to point out that my "racism" today isn't the neo-Naziism that I used to hold. It's nothing like it at all, and quite frankly, I don't think it's that big a deal.

And I noted that it's a demonstrable moral failing, leaning and predicated on hatred, however you express it.

Time to grow up, Trad. Put away viciously childish things.

 

[Traditio]

And I noted that it's a demonstrable moral failing, leaning and predicated on hatred, however you express it.

Time to grow up, Trad. Put away viciously childish things.

Look, it very well might be a moral failing on my part. But it's certainly not my worst one, and I think that the question stands:

Is any of this really sufficient to merit social outrage?

Is any of this really sufficient to turn a racist of my sort into a social parriah?

Is any of this really sufficient to merit someone losing his or her job for holding similar opinions?

A black person can come at me and say: "It's because of people like YOU that my ancestors were slaves and we got lynched so many times; it's because of people like YOU that we've been repressed over and over again."

And my answer is simple: "Be that as it may, I've never owned slaves. I've never lynched anyone. And, so far as I'm aware, I've never engaged in institutional/political repression. What's your problem with me in particular?"

Furthermore: even if I am a "racist," does that mean that everything I say is false? Does it mean that a statistic or a piece of evidence is false simply because I've cited it? Facts aren't racist. They just are.

 

[Town Heretic]

Look, it very well might be a moral failing on my part.

Not might, is demonstrably a failing. When you give it that kind of off handed shrug you step around the thing you should be most considering. You are or should be a Christian first and foremost. It is not Christ like to invite and celebrate a moral failing. It's no more acceptable than allowing yourself any sin, worse than failing to struggle against it and toward that which pleases God.

But it's certainly not my worst one,

Whether it is or isn't wouldn't be the point. The point is I would suppose you understand the distinction between failings that we regret and what we're talking about here.

So you can't really reconcile your faith with a sin you not only don't avoid, but willfully include as a part of your walk. That's not failing, that's permission. And how can you approach God with that?

Is any of this really sufficient to merit social outrage?

I think outrage is the word you slap across it to defend the unconscionable by deflection.

Back to considering what you're doing and how it can be reconciled (or, more to the point, can't be) with your faith.

Is any of this really sufficient to turn a racist of my sort into a social parriah?

If you excuse and entertain your sin as a professed Christian? Absolutely, though I'd hope the first response of Christendom would be to engage you and make you face this thing head on.

Is any of this really sufficient to merit someone losing his or her job for holding similar opinions?

Yes, for a number of reasons less important to me than the state of your mind and soul on the point. That is, I'd be happy to explain to you the impact of that behavior on others in a work environment, even outside the authority issue that might be attached, but I'd rather discuss this as a willful moral failing first.

A black person can come at me and say: "It's because of people like YOU that my ancestors were slaves and we got lynched so many times; it's because of people like YOU that we've been repressed over and over again."

I'd say it's because of people who held your attitude that it took a great deal of time before an inarguably evil institution had its license revoked by the compact.

And my answer is simple: "Be that as it may,

There you go again, missing your responsibility and shifting the burden. It's intellectually dishonest slight of hand.

I've never owned slaves. I've never lynched anyone. And, so far as I'm aware, I've never engaged in institutional/political repression. What's your problem with me in particular?"

I've already answered you on this point. You stepped around that answer in this semi response of yours.

Furthermore: even if I am a "racist," does that mean that everything I say is false?

Who made that claim?

Does it mean that a statistic or a piece of evidence is false simply because I've cited it? Facts aren't racist. They just are.

Facts without context can lie like the devil himself. But I'd rather talk about your Christian life and your present problem with that sin you permit and embrace, whether or not you excuse it also.

That concerns me and should concern you.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I'm not a fan of black-white interracial dating/marriage. Not gonna lie: whenever I see an attractive white woman with a black man, it just gets on my nerves. You know the law of supply and demand, right?

Eh, that just sums you up right there then. Unfortunately you don't seem to have grown up at all and are the same precocious individual who only 'waters down' his racism and misogyny in order to remain on the board. The fact you didn't mention or condemn the white supremacist tosspot who subjected Anna, her children and their friends to such an ordeal only serves to support that.

lain:

 

[Traditio]

The fact you didn't mention or condemn the white supremacist tosspot who subjected Anna, her children and their friends to his spew only serves to support that.

lain:

Huh? You mean this:

"...been the subject of vicious, in-my-face bigotry by someone who thought I was in an inter-racial relationship, because I was at the store with my sons and their friends who were black and the white supremacist assumed they were all my kids" (AnnaBenedetti)?

I didn't think that it needed commenting on.

You shouldn't subject random strangers to racist tirades. Especially not children.

Booooo. Shame on him.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Huh? You mean this:

"...been the subject of vicious, in-my-face bigotry by someone who thought I was in an inter-racial relationship, because I was at the store with my sons and their friends who were black and the white supremacist assumed they were all my kids" (AnnaBenedetti)?

I didn't think that it needed commenting on.

You shouldn't subject random strangers to racist tirades. Especially not children.

Booooo. Shame on him.

Ya, nice try Trad but a bit too late. Typically of you you made a dumb remark about how it pisses you off to see attractive white women with black men and an equally dumb comment about 'supply and demand'. Equally racist and misogynistic all in one package. Way to go you....

 

[Traditio]

You are or should be a Christian first and foremost. It is not Christ like to invite and celebrate a moral failing. It's no more acceptable than allowing yourself any sin, worse than failing to struggle against it and toward that which pleases God.

This is true.

Whether it is or isn't wouldn't be the point. The point is I would suppose you understand the distinction between failings that we regret and what we're talking about here.

So you can't really reconcile your faith with a sin you not only don't avoid, but willfully include as a part of your walk. That's not failing, that's permission. And how can you approach God with that?

I'm sorry, at this point, I just have to go through the list of things that I actually consider "racist" among the things that I do.

That I use the n-word in certain contexts? That's probably a sin, though I can't help but wonder which one. Further, venial or mortal? More often than not, it's in a context that I consider humorous. If it's a sin, it likely falls under sins against justice. In this case, it would be 1. injustice against my neighbor, 2. the injustice is contrary to their good name and 3. it's generally done in jest.

But how serious is the injustice given the context? How likely is it actually to impugn the reputation of the people in question?

It's probably a sin, but it seems to me as though this is probably venial. So I almost certainly shouldn't be doing this. But how often do you and others (and myself also) commit generically similar sins against justice against others? How often do you and I engage in harmful gossip against our neighbors, for example? How often do we insult each other in anger?

If you speak ill of your neighbor with the intent of harming their good name, this very well could be a mortal sin. If you've done this, this is probably much worse than when I use the n-word. (Not that I'm justifying my use thereof.)

Is it the fact that I tend to cross the street when I see certain blacks/hispanics walking my way who are dressed in a certain way?

Is it the fact that I generally don't associate with minorities if I can help it? That I have a general preference for hanging out with caucasians (ceteris paribus), given the choice?

Is it the fact that I would never consider marrying (or even openly dating) a black woman?

I think outrage is the word you slap across it to defend the unconscionable by deflection.

I don't think that it's inaccurate, especially in the case of the news article that I've cited. :idunno:

Yes, for a number of reasons less important to me than the state of your mind and soul on the point. That is, I'd be happy to explain to you the impact of that behavior on others in a work environment, even outside the authority issue that might be attached, but I'd rather discuss this as a willful moral failing first.

1. I've worked with minorities before.

2. The guy in question was a scholar. I'm going through school to become a college professor.

What authority? What negative impact? If/when I start teaching, chances are, my students will never know any of this. Chances are, I won't arbitrarily fail minority students.

If someone is a good college professor and generally treats his students fairly (regardless of the minority status or non-status of his students), why on earth should he be fired simply because it comes to light that he's a racist?

Who made that claim?

This often is implicit. Nobody bothered to evaluate the scholar's claim in the OP article based on facts. No. It seems as though he was decried as a racist and forced into resignation.

AnnaBenedetti didn't evaluate the claim based on facts and statistics, nor did most of the people in this thread. Instead, the focus shifted to the obvious racism of the person who created the thread.

 

[Traditio]

Ya, nice try Trad but a bit too late. Typically of you you made a dumb remark about how it pisses you off to see attractive white women with black men and an equally dumb comment about 'supply and demand'. Equally racist and misogynistic all in one package. Way to go you....

Look, as I said before, I'm evaluating these things simply in terms of self-interest. :idunno:

 

[TomO]

Chances are, I won't arbitrarily fail minority students.

I like that..."chances are"...Has a nice non-committal tone to it. :think:

"chances are"...kinda like it could happen...But probably won't. :idunno:


:chuckle: I'm going to use that more often...Hmm lemme try it on for size:

lain: Chances are....I'm not going to hunt Trad down and decapitate him with a shovel.


Chances are....Yeah, that's great.

 

[Traditio]

I like that..."chances are"...Has a nice non-committal tone to it. :think:

Ok, ok. I'll try that again: It's very much more probable than not that I won't arbitrarily fail minority students. Really, if I had to give the odds, I'd say that there's like an 87% likelihood that this will never happen in my future teaching career.

Will I cut minority students slack because they haven't mastered the English language or because of various other minority issues? Not if I can help it. But that's not because I'm a racist. I don't plan on cutting anyone slack if I can help it. You give undergrads an inch, and they'll take a mile.

 

[TomO]

Ok, ok. I'll try that again: It's very much more probable than not that I won't arbitrarily fail minority students. Really, if I had to give the odds, I'd say that there's like an 87% that this will never happen.

:nono: You're your own worst enemy Kid....When/If you go down it won't be the "Mexicans" or the "Blacks" who do it to you...It'll be right in your own back-yard.

....and I'm willing to bet that, even with all your learning, you won't really even understand why. :sigh:

Will I cut minority students slack because they haven't mastered the English language or because of various other minority issues? Not if I can help it. But that's not because I'm a racist. I don't plan on cutting anyone slack if I can help it. You give undergrads an inch, and they'll take a mile.

Too bad you didn't just stick with that. lain: