ECT MAD implies both Jesus and Paul are liars.

Right Divider

Body part
Messiah means Savior. Jesus was called the Savior when he walked the earth, before he died.
No, it does not. Just continues to show that you don't know what you're talking about.

Messiah means anointed or anointed one.

Jesus, during His earthly ministry to Israel, was not preaching the gospel of the grace of God no matter how badly you try to twist the scripture into a pretzel.
 
Last edited:

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Messiah means Savior. Jesus was called the Savior when he walked the earth, before he died.

Catch that, TOL audience? This fraud, demon possessed troll is the prime example of isolating yourself from intelligent members of society. That is a why "Cousin It," AKA Jethrene Clampett, is one of the few posters I just ignore-IQ's under 70 need pop tarts, and blow pop's, and twinkies, while wearing a straight jacket, not attention, and not visibility.
 

Danoh

New member
Messiah means Savior. Jesus was called the Savior when he walked the earth, before he died.

Nope.

Saviour was what the name Jesus itself...referred to.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But you did try, GT, my hat's off to ya for that much.

And for the challenge your posts and that of others on here seemingly opposed or not to my own views, can often result in - in getting into the Scripture Itself to there study out what's what.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17
 

dodge

New member
Nope.

Saviour was what the name Jesus itself...referred to.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But you did try, GT, my hat's off to ya for that much.

And for the challenge your posts and that of others on here seemingly opposed or not to my own views, can often result in - in getting into the Scripture Itself to there study out what's what.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17

These are the main points in this prophecy: The promised Messiah (the Prophet who is like Moses) would be a child of Israel, He would be God incarnate who comes as a human and does not speak with earthquakes and fires from the mount, and this human makes a New Covenant which is different from the Covenant made through Moses, and thus He is the Mediator of a New Covenant, as Moses was the mediator of the Old Covenant. No other prophet was the mediator of a new covenant; they all followed the Covenant made through Moses, and “all the prophets and the law have prophesied unto John”, as Jesus said (Matthew 11:13); this is John the Baptist who was the last prophet of the Old Covenant who was greater than all the prophets as he introduced the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus Christ, God incarnate Himself!

https://jdisciple.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/messiah/
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
2Ti 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Paul taught and believed that the OT had more than enough truth about Jesus that just by believing and trusting the OT there was sufficient truth to "make one wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus".

If Paul was right , and I know he was:

Mad is wrong and error on every level.

1. Since many in MAD believe (falsely) that Paul was the first in the B.O.C. because of the "mystery" he revealed HOW then could Timothy have been saved JUST by knowing the OT and been made wise in the things concerning Christ Jesus.

2. If the meaning and message of salvation was hidden as those in MAD believe ( falsely)how could Timothy have had faith in Jesus based on the OT alone ? Can you not see the " through faith in Jesus" that Paul said was available in the OT ?


Jesus said, " if they believe not Moses and the prophets neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead", and that is still true today !

Again the OT:
More than enough to believe , trust, and be saved in the OT through Moses and the prophets.

Jesus said if folks did not believe Moses and the prophets ,uh oh ! Believe what ? Obviously Jesus, faith, GRACE, and salvation through Jesus are taught in the OT ; otherwise , Jesus would have been lying when He said NEITHER will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead, which HE did !

The foundation was laid in the OT and fulfilled in the NT.


As those in MAD want to ignore the 4 gospels and all scripture except for what Paul wrote scripture says Jesus is in the WHOLE BOOK.

Psa 40:7
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
Heb 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Paul Defends His Ministry
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
 

dodge

New member
Galatians 1:11-12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Paul Defends His Ministry
11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Galatians says others were in Christ before Paul.

Paul preached the "same" faith he once sought to destroy.
 

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Ephesians 3:5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

Galatians says others were in Christ before Paul.

Paul preached the "same" faith he once sought to destroy.

So where do you get the idea that MAD implies that both Paul and Jesus are liars since the faith and Christianity hinge on their teachings?
 

dodge

New member
So where do you get the idea that MAD implies that both Paul and Jesus are liars since the faith and Christianity hinge on their teachings?

Madist have told me repeatedly that Paul was the first in the B.O.C., which Paul says others were in Christ before him.

Madist have told me Paul preached a new message, which Galatians says Paul preached the same faith he once sought to destroy.

Madist teach that repentance was for and to Israel. Jesus and Paul as all the Apostles taught repentance towards God.

Conclusion: MAD does not follow scripture but follow other confused and deceived men.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Madist have told me repeatedly that Paul was the first in the B.O.C., which Paul says others were in Christ before him.

That's because "the Body of Christ" is only part of those who are "in Christ." all of the "Body of Christ" are "in Christ," but not all of those who are "in Christ" are "the Body of Christ."

Madist have told me Paul preached a new message, which Galatians says Paul preached the same faith he once sought to destroy.

Paul establishes very quickly in Galatians that he and the twelve (the apostles) agreed after discussion that he and Barnabas should go to the Gentiles, and that they should go only to the circumcised (ie, the Jews, both those who were born Jews, and those who were proselyte):

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter(for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles),and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. - Galatians 2:7-9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:7-9&version=NKJV

Now, why is that? If it is as you say, and the messages are the same, why only send Paul to the world, and not the apostles also? In fact, weren't they given the command (by Jesus, no less) to go out into the world (ie, the Great Commission)?

And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. - Matthew 28:18-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew28:18-20&version=NKJV

As Apostles (as opposed to them being only disciples), they had the authority (given to them by Jesus) to determine who they should go to.

But again, why?

Because Paul's message is so different than the message the Apostles were preaching. Peter even says it's hard to understand.

and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. - 2 Peter 3:15-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Peter3:15-16&version=NKJV

Paul even says:

But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ. - Galatians 1:11-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians1:11-12&version=NKJV

Yes, it is the same gospel, but a hidden part of it.

Israel is under the covenant of Law (Genesis 17), but the hidden portion, the part taught by Paul which was given to him by Jesus, is found in Genesis 15, two whole chapters before circumcision was required.

Let me try to explain it this way. (using Romans 1-5)

There are technically 4 groups of people described in the world. There's the Jews the ones who are under the law. This group includes proselytes and Jewish-born. There's the Christians, who are not under the law, but under grace. This group considers Jew and Gentile "equal" (for lack of a better term) to God, making the differences between them irrelevant. There's those whom we will call "the unsolicited," because they have never heard of God or His Word, the Bible, or the Gospel message (of any type (and I'll clarify why I say that in a moment, just keep reading)). And then there's the solicited, who have heard the Gospel, and have rejected it.

Throughout the Old Testament, the Nation of Israel (ie the Jews/Hebrews) are thoroughly shown to be under law. The first five books of the Bible are called "the Law" by the Jews. Their method of salvation is works based. They must keep the Law in order to go to heaven. In the New Testament, however, that changed, so that no longer is their salvation only works based, but is now works with faith added onto it. (Which is why GT and others, and I'm sure you too, dodge, teach "faith plus works" using scripture, which is biblically correct, but dispensationally incorrect. More on that later.)

Christians are not under law, they are under Grace. The only requirement for their salvation is faith. No works.

Now, the solicited and unsolicited, which go hand-in-hand with each other. Jesus alludes to these two groups in one of His parables.

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 12:47-48 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke12:47-48&version=NKJV

Bolded is the reference to those who are "solicited." Underlined is the reference to those who are "unsolicited."

In italics is the guidelines for determining if one is righteous. Imagine a pagan man who, in all of his life, has never heard of God, the Bible, Israel, Christians, none of it. But he, in his long life, has come to realize that the gods he worships could not have created the world he lives in, nor could they have made him. He realizes that there must be some other Being that must exist that could have, that is powerful. This man is someone to whom little is given, so little will be required of him, basically that, since he has realized that God must exist, all he has to do is believe, and he will be saved. It's that simple. Sin is dead in him. He cannot be condemned for his sins, because there is no law to condemn him, only that he believes and loves God.

Now, say that man has been believing only in God, and a Jewish missionary finds him and shows him the Law, and the message of works based salvation, and YHWH, whom He already believed in. Two things could happen, 1) he could reject this new teaching, or 2) he could accept this new law, and place himself under it, and become a proselyte Jew.

If he rejects it, he is now condemned by it, having become one of the solicited, because he has been shown a method of salvation where before there was none. If he accepts it, he must keep it. He has now been given more, so more will be required of him. To the extent that he keeps the law, that is the extent he will be rewarded. If he lived prior to Christ's crucifixion (not Acts 9), then no faith is required, only works. If he lived after the crucifixion, but prior to Acts 9, faith is then added to works, so he must believe and keep the law (ie do good works). Again, more is given, so more is required.

Let's say he accepts it, and starts living his life under this new law, and some years later, a Christian missionary comes along, and shows him the message of salvation by faith alone.

Again, he can either accept or reject this new gospel. If he accepts it, then he is now redeemed, and will never lose his salvation, because Christ paid for all of his sins. No longer does he have to obey the law (not that he should be lawless), because he is no longer under the law, but under grace. While he may sin, he is no longer a sinner, because Christ is not a minister of sin (Galatians 2:17). Because Christ is in him, when God looks at him, He sees His Son, not the man.

However...

If this man, who is currently under the law, rejects the greatest gift of all, then he is now condemned to eternal separation from God, because he did not believe. To whom much is given, much will be required. He has been offered the greatest gift of all, and rejected it.

So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah55:11&version=NKJV

The gift has been given, and so the gift (to those whom it has been given (ie who are made aware of it)) is required for salvation.

Madist teach that repentance was for and to Israel. Jesus and Paul as all the Apostles taught repentance towards God.

See above.

Conclusion: MAD does not follow scripture but follow other confused and deceived men.

Dispensation is a word used in the Bible.

It comes from the greek word oikonomia. It's where we get our word "economy" from. It's made up of two other words, "oikos" (house) and "nomos" (law or rules). It literally means "house rules." If you go to a friend's house to play pool, and shoot the 8 ball into a pocket,, you'd say you won, but then your friend would tell you that you didn't, because the rule is that you have to call which pocket you'll shoot it into. You didn't know the economy, the house rules, for playing pool, and because of that, you lost.

MAD is simply a dispensation that underlines the cutting off of Israel and the grafting in of the Gentiles.
 
Last edited:

musterion

Well-known member
Madist have told me repeatedly that Paul was the first in the B.O.C., which Paul says others were in Christ before him.

The solution to all this is very, very simple.

Since the Body of Christ is said to be one NEW man comprised of saved Jews and Gentiles, with no distinction between them any longer, that means it cannot have existed without both Jews and Gentiles in it.

So all you have to do is show where anyone, before the point Paul was saved, preached that Jews and Gentiles were on equal individual footing before God, and that Jews no longer had any spiritual priority or "place in line" before Him, thereby indicating the existence of a Body of Jews and Gentiles fused as one NEW man in Christ.

Can you do that, Dodge?

Show where anyone (before Paul was saved) KNEW that God was building a new man of equally lost/equally saved Jews and Gentiles, and was doing so completely apart from His purposes for Israel, and you win.
 
Last edited:

God's Truth

New member
No, it does not. Just continues to show that you don't know what you're talking about.
Messiah means Savior and Savior means Messiah
Messiah means anointed or anointed one.
Jesus is the anointed one.
Jesus, during His earthly ministry to Israel, was not preaching the gospel of the grace of God no matter how badly you try to twist the scripture into a pretzel.
Jesus came with grace. No matter how much you don't want to accept that, it is written.
 

musterion

Well-known member
Jesus came with grace. No matter how much you don't want to accept that, it is written.

Yes, to Israel.

Israel, in turn, was to receive Him and be His channel of grace to the rest of the world. That was the plan from as far back as Moses. He Himself did not and was not going to go to Gentiles. That was the nation's job.

But you don't care about what's written. You only care about the myths you've been turned to.
 

JudgeRightly

裁判官が正しく判断する
Staff member
Administrator
Super Moderator
Gold Subscriber
Yes, to Israel.

Israel, in turn, was to receive Him and be His channel of grace to the rest of the world. That was the plan from as far back as Moses.

Even further back than that. That was the plan He had from before he created the universe. (PLEASE NOTE: I am not saying that every detail was planned out and everything "predestined," like Calvinists do. I am only saying that He had a plan in case His creation rebelled.

He Himself did not and was not going to go to Gentiles. That was the nation's job.

Correct.

But you don't care about what's written. You only care about the myths you've been turned to.

True. I went a bit further though and explained why above.
 

God's Truth

New member
Nope.

Saviour was what the name Jesus itself...referred to.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

But you did try, GT, my hat's off to ya for that much.

And for the challenge your posts and that of others on here seemingly opposed or not to my own views, can often result in - in getting into the Scripture Itself to there study out what's what.

Rom. 5:8
Prov. 27:17

Messiah means Savior. Jesus was called the Savior when he walked the earth, before he died.
 

God's Truth

New member
Yes, to Israel.

At least you admit that Jesus came with grace.
Israel, in turn, was to receive Him and be His channel of grace to the rest of the world. That was the plan from as far back as Moses.
No, the plan for salvation to be through Jesus was the plan before the creation of the world.

He Himself did not and was not going to go to Gentiles.

When Jesus walked the earth, he came ONLY FOR THOSE who ALREADY belonged to God; and then when he was lifted up from the earth, then ALL could come to him.

That was the nation's job.
Israel was the light to the world. Salvation is from the Jews. Now all teach Jesus.

But you don't care about what's written. You only care about the myths you've been turned to.

You don't accept the truth that the plan for salvation happened exactly as it was supposed to.
 

musterion

Well-known member
At least you admit that Jesus came with grace.

Never denied it.

No, the plan for salvation to be through Jesus was the plan before the creation of the world.

Yes, except no one knew how God would do it during this secret dispensation of grace. That was unknown until Paul.

You don't accept the truth that the plan for salvation happened exactly as it was supposed to.

Yes I do.
 

Nihilo

BANNED
Banned
Jesus came with grace.
Yes, to Israel.

Israel, in turn, was to receive Him and be His channel of grace to the rest of the world. That was the plan from as far back as Moses. He Himself did not and was not going to go to Gentiles. That was the nation's job.
The Prophets of Israel, and the Lord Jesus during His earthly ministry, preached the Resurrection. Wasn't the Resurrection the plan? So wasn't Israel (I'm presuming "Israel" here means Abraham's descendants from both Houses of Judah and of Israel?) supposed to be the Lord's channel of grace to the rest of the world by preaching the Good News of the Resurrection?

Was there a plan that didn't involve the Resurrection?
 

God's Truth

New member
Never denied it.



Yes, except no one knew how God would do it during this secret dispensation of grace. That was unknown until Paul.



Yes I do.

Didn't say you denied it. I said at least you admit it, unlike the many here.

Not sure why you are going against me now that you were corrected about when the plan for salvation through Jesus was made.
 
Top