Lucifer and the Ancient Earth

chair

Well-known member
"The Way" (faith in Yeshua Messiah) is 100% a 1st century sect of Judaism.
There were believing rabbis in the 1st century and there are believing rabbis in Israel today.
Why don't you talk to some of your fellow Jews of the Messianic "Sect of the Nazarenes" about it?

God told you to expect Messiah in the beginning of the 1st century CE.

Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Paul made it into a non-Jewish pagan religion. A religion that would have seemed completely foreign to Jesus.

Modern Rabbinic Judaism started before the destruction of the Temple. And there were Rabbis back then. Like Hillel and Shammai. But you are ignorant of real rabbis back then, and prefer your theoretical pipe-dreams.
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Paul made it into a non-Jewish pagan religion. A religion that would have seemed completely foreign to Jesus.

While I agree with your criticism of beameup here, I don't think it is a fair description of Paul to say that he started a pagan religion. Or, in what sense do you use the term pagan here? I think Paul understood himself to be in continuity with Jewish religion. Of course, if one does not share his belief that Jesus was in fact risen and shown to be the Christ, then one will not agree with his reasoning. He understood that event as the event that were to draw the gentiles to the God of Israel, and that baptism and faith in Christ was the sign of this new universal covenant. Whether it is a religion that is foreign to Jesus, well that is not something we know in the historical sense. One has to keep in mind that the central event in Christianity is the cross and resurrection, not the teachings of Christ (although they are important, but they are so mainly in light of those key events). If Jesus is not the Christ, then maybe it is foreign to him, or not, we simply have no idea. But if Christ is risen, which is the confessional point of origin of Christian religion, then Christ uttered the great commission and he appeared to Paul (and Peter) and declared gentiles to be clean. In short: If Christ is risen, he is not a person merely of the past, but a living reality. Obviously, that originates in confession, not as self-evident historical fact which some people here seems to think.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Paul made it into a non-Jewish pagan religion. A religion that would have seemed completely foreign to Jesus.

In what way? What did Paul teach that was not according to scripture?
 

beameup

New member
Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Paul made it into a non-Jewish pagan religion. A religion that would have seemed completely foreign to Jesus.

Modern Rabbinic Judaism started before the destruction of the Temple. And there were Rabbis back then. Like Hillel and Shammai. But you are ignorant of real rabbis back then, and prefer your theoretical pipe-dreams.

There were 3 main branches of Judaism in the 1st century: Pharisees, Sadducees & Essenes
It is clear from Qumran that they were the most likely to have embraced Yeshua of Nazareth.
The Pharisees were self-righteous and were the most likely to have rejected Yeshua of Nazareth.
Over the 1st and 2nd centuries there continued a drift between the Messianic Synagogues and the Gentile congregations. However, there have always existed Messianic Jews during the last 2 millennia and there are many Messianic congregations in Israel today.
I'm sure that your Talmuds contain information on the subjects at hand... unless they have been "purged" of such information. For example, there was a widespread belief in "Two Powers in Heaven" during the BCE. As well, the "shedding of blood" was fully embraced as an essential element of Judaism in the BCE.
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
Neither is the creation as described on days 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and early on day 6 perfect, but only "good". If God would not create anything that is not perfect, then He must not have been the creator on those days. It wasn't until he made man and provide a wife for him and finished the creation that it was "very good".

Can God create anything that isn't "very good"? Is it possible that God might not always start out with perfection/completion, but often starts with the beginning and works His way to completion/perfection?

Maybe for clarification, I should have said good and/or perfect.

Indeed what God did on the six days of restoration was described by God himself to be good. Now, is that "good" by man's standards or by God's standards?

God does not do things below His ability. He does not cheapen or sell cheap imitations nor counterfeits of some one else's works.

John 10:10 who comes but to steal and to kill and destroy?

When read carefully, as in, caring to find out what God has to say, as opposed to what you or I would want it to say, the record of the six days do not use the word "create" on all six days.

How good is the vocabulary of God? Does God know languages perfectly or just good?

Does God know how to communicate perfectly what He wants to communicate?

I say yes, what do you say?

Does the word "said" mean the same thing as "create"? No.

Does the word "divide" mean the same thing as "create"? No.

Does the word "form" mean the same thing as the word "create"? No.

Did God use the word divide because He meant divide?

Did God use the word "said" because he meant "said"?

Did God use the word "made" because he meant "made"?

Did God use the word "create" because he meant "create"?

Did God use the word "good" because He meant "good"?

Did God use the word "perfect" because He meant "perfect"?

Can we trust God's word because it is literally and truly God's words? God's message to man from God?

Granted, there maybe more accurate ways to translate the Hebrew into English, but that is a subject for a different time.

God restored His original good and perfect creation of Genesis 1:1 because a cataclysmic event caused by the war between God's angels under Michael and Lucifer and his cast down angels. (Fallen? Revelation 12:7-9 they were cast down or cast out, they were evicted, thrown out)

Do you think Lucifer, the Devil, the Serpent went without a fight? There was war.

When did that occur? Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Do you think Lucifer, the Devil, the Serpent went without a fight? There was war.

When did that occur? Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Yes, when Satan appeared to Adam and Eve he was characterized as a serpent, meant in a derogatory way.
 
Last edited:

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Christianity started out as a Jewish sect. Paul made it into a non-Jewish pagan religion.

"When he had come, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood about and laid many serious complaints against Paul, which they could not prove" (Acts 25:7)

Why were the Jews not able to prove Paul's teachings were not according to scripture?

Why do you believe it's okay to bear false witness against someone who can't defend himself?

Or can you show the scriptures Paul taught contrary to scripture?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Maybe for clarification, I should have said good and/or perfect.

Indeed what God did on the six days of restoration was described by God himself to be good. Now, is that "good" by man's standards or by God's standards?

God does not do things below His ability. He does not cheapen or sell cheap imitations nor counterfeits of some one else's works.

John 10:10 who comes but to steal and to kill and destroy?

When read carefully, as in, caring to find out what God has to say, as opposed to what you or I would want it to say, the record of the six days do not use the word "create" on all six days.

How good is the vocabulary of God? Does God know languages perfectly or just good?

Does God know how to communicate perfectly what He wants to communicate?

I say yes, what do you say?

Does the word "said" mean the same thing as "create"? No.

Does the word "divide" mean the same thing as "create"? No.

Does the word "form" mean the same thing as the word "create"? No.

Did God use the word divide because He meant divide?

Did God use the word "said" because he meant "said"?

Did God use the word "made" because he meant "made"?

Did God use the word "create" because he meant "create"?

Did God use the word "good" because He meant "good"?

Did God use the word "perfect" because He meant "perfect"?

Can we trust God's word because it is literally and truly God's words? God's message to man from God?

Granted, there maybe more accurate ways to translate the Hebrew into English, but that is a subject for a different time.

God restored His original good and perfect creation of Genesis 1:1 because a cataclysmic event caused by the war between God's angels under Michael and Lucifer and his cast down angels. (Fallen? Revelation 12:7-9 they were cast down or cast out, they were evicted, thrown out)

Do you think Lucifer, the Devil, the Serpent went without a fight? There was war.

When did that occur? Between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2
You missed my point. You focused on the "formless and void" earth, saying it wasn't good or perfect. But throughout the next several days of the creation, the work was progressing, and not in its final form. Same applies to "formless and void".

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
 

oatmeal

Well-known member
You missed my point. You focused on the "formless and void" earth, saying it wasn't good or perfect. But throughout the next several days of the creation, the work was progressing, and not in its final form. Same applies to "formless and void".

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

Well, I replied to your point quite directly.

Evidently, you believe that God's creation in Genesis 1:1 was a mess because God's work in Genesis 1:1 was a confusion and darkness.

God is not the author of confusion, and God is light. He did not create a world of confusion and darkness.

It became that way and not because of anything God did, but because of the rebellion of Lucifer and one third of the angels.
 

chair

Well-known member
...

God is not the author of confusion, and God is light. He did not create a world of confusion and darkness.

It became that way and not because of anything God did, but because of the rebellion of Lucifer and one third of the angels.

As it says in Genesis...what verse was that?
 

beameup

New member
As it says in Genesis...what verse was that?

The Bible is not a man-made novel. There is no "chapter" that explains it all in one place.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the rest of the Tanakh to get "the whole picture".

Obviously something tragic happened early in Genesis, between vs. 1 & 2, to cause the earth to become (hayah) tohuw bohuw.
 

chair

Well-known member
The Bible is not a man-made novel. There is no "chapter" that explains it all in one place.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the rest of the Tanakh to get "the whole picture".

Obviously something tragic happened early in Genesis, between vs. 1 & 2, to cause the earth to become (hayah) tohuw bohuw.

When you cut and paste verses from different places, you can come up with nearly anything you want. Nothing tragic happened between those verses. "haya" can mean "was", not "became". It occurs to me that if the earth had been created in perfect shape, then ruined by Satan, the text would make some mention of this important fact.

Doesn't it seem odd to you that this most crucial fact should be hidden in a code, spread out in texts that were written centuries apart?

How would somebody in the time of Moses understand Genesis?
 

Derf

Well-known member
Well, I replied to your point quite directly.

Evidently, you believe that God's creation in Genesis 1:1 was a mess because God's work in Genesis 1:1 was a confusion and darkness.

God is not the author of confusion, and God is light. He did not create a world of confusion and darkness.

It became that way and not because of anything God did, but because of the rebellion of Lucifer and one third of the angels.
I don't understand why you say that. My point was the opposite: that whatever the condition after Gen 1:1, it wasn't complete, just like after day 1 it was incomplete, and after day 2 it was incomplete, and after day 3.... Saying it was a wrecked creation, just because it isn't in the final state on Day 1 is reading into the text, but you could do it at any of those places--if you ascribe to the catastrophe between vs1 and vs2--because God had not "fixed" the destruction's impact on, say, the sun prior to day 3, or on the animals prior to day 6. What, then, is special about the dichotomy between the first and second verses?

If you believe there was a great cataclysm between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, because of the condition in 1:2 you do so in spite of the scriptures, not in adherence to them. God is not the author of anything less than perfection! So the imperfection of Days 1-5 and early on 6 would be antithetical to God's nature, no matter what happened between :1 and :2. Unless you allow for God to work toward a goal rather than achieving any goal instantaneously.

This is not to say that God cannot achieve things instantaneously, but He can also achieve things in an orderly and progressive fashion.

Now, I'm not averse to considering options on the timing, even possibly a long time frame between the time the world was created until light was created (or even appeared at the earth's surface). And if other stuff was happening (apparently without light on the earth) for millions or billions of years, I could see how one could fit that into the second verse's "evening" which came before "morning". But the only thing that was "formless and void", or "confusion and darkness" as you say, was "the earth". Thus, the rest of the universe was not affected, or if it was, you can't get it from scripture.

But in Ex 20:11 speaks against this:
[Exo 20:11 YLT] 11 for six days hath Jehovah made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that [is] in them, and resteth in the seventh day; therefore hath Jehovah blessed the Sabbath-day, and doth sanctify it.

Notice that "the heavens" is plural, so it isn't just the atmosphere of the earth--it must apply to at least our sun, moon, and planets, and probably to the whole universe.
Notice that "all that is in them" applies equally to "the heavens", "the earth", and "the sea". So if there are dinosaur bones that were not from creatures God made those 6 days, then God must have made those bones and placed them in those locations during those six days--the "all that is in" "the earth" would have to apply to the fossils. But that is ridiculous--those bones and those fragments of skin, and even those fragments of blood containing real blood cells that have been found in/with dinosaur bones in recent years were from real creatures that laid real eggs that hatched into real creatures that must have been made or descended from those made during those 6 days.
 

beameup

New member
Doesn't it seem odd to you that this most crucial fact should be hidden in a code, spread out in texts that were written centuries apart?
Nothing is "hidden in code". However, looking at the Tanakh as a man-made document will conceal the truth contained therein. The "natural man" cannot understand God's Word.
 

chair

Well-known member
Nothing is "hidden in code". However, looking at the Tanakh as a man-made document will conceal the truth contained therein. The "natural man" cannot understand God's Word.

In other words- you don't have an answer to my point.

Tell me, how was an Israelite of the time of Moses supposed to understand Genesis?
 

chair

Well-known member
While I agree with your criticism of beameup here, I don't think it is a fair description of Paul to say that he started a pagan religion. Or, in what sense do you use the term pagan here? I think Paul understood himself to be in continuity with Jewish religion. Of course, if one does not share his belief that Jesus was in fact risen and shown to be the Christ, then one will not agree with his reasoning...

I was unduly harsh with Paul. The pagan elements came in after his time.

I rather obviously do not think the risen Christ is in"continuity with Jewish religion". But that is not the most important point. It may seem so to Christians, because they are belief-oriented.

Paul thought his new ideas were for everybody. Judaism is not a religion in the sense that Christianity is. It is the religion of the Jews. It is a religion of commandments. Making it a religion for everybody while dumping the commandments turns it into something new, not a continuation of Judaism.
 

beameup

New member
In other words- you don't have an answer to my point.

Tell me, how was an Israelite of the time of Moses supposed to understand Genesis?

The "point" is is that the truth of the Tanakh is concealed (sealed) to those who fall into these two categories:
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is unlearned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am unlearned.
- Isaiah 29:11-12
However, "words of THE book" are open to those who have the inspiration of the Ruach Elohim.

:sherlock:
 

chair

Well-known member
The "point" is is that the truth of the Tanakh is concealed (sealed) to those who fall into these two categories:
And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
And the book is delivered to him that is unlearned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am unlearned.
- Isaiah 29:11-12
However, "words of THE book" are open to those who have the inspiration of the Ruach Elohim.

:sherlock:

Ah. More verses out of context.
How would somebody in the time of Moses understand Genesis?
 

beameup

New member
Tell me, how was an Israelite of the time of Moses supposed to understand Genesis?
Perhaps you could refer to some of the writings of your ancestors that sat at the feet of YHWH and ate and drank at the feet of YHWH there at Sinai.

A major topic among the Jews during the ministry of Yeshua of Nazareth was Satan/the Devil and "devils". Yeshua cast out devils and was tempted by The Devil as recorded in the Gospels. The religious leadership accused Yeshua of being empowered by Satan himself.
And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils. And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan? And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. - Mark 3:22-24
So, we clearly see that the 1st century Jews believed in a literal Satan, and that Satan had a KINGDOM.
 
Top