What's to comment? Apparently you have some specific issue in mind, but I have no idea what it is.
Lucifer and the Ancient Earth
- Thread starter beameup
- Start date
What's to comment? Apparently you have some specific issue in mind, but I have no idea what it is.
What an odd set of things to believe.
Why would God give earth to Satan? And then buy humanity back?
What is the point of all this>
God created the earth for angels in order to prepare it for his children.
Instead of living in peace Lucifer implemented a coup.
His coup failed and he was expelled from God's heaven to the earth.
He is now the prince of the power of the air influencing humans to sin.
Jesus resisted the Adversary and qualified to assume the government of the earth.
As you know those who sin incur a sentence of death upon conviction of their sin.
When Christ presents himself to the world the Adversary will die.
He has already convicted himself.
After a thousand years he will be restored to life.
If he sins again he will die a second death and will be no more forever.
Derf
Well-known member
[Gen 1:26, 28 KJV] 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. ... 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Seems like God is now giving the angels' territory away to humans, after they managed to destroy it rather than prepare it. Unless the preparation was only in the first 5-6 days. If they destroyed it, during some period between Gen 1:1 and 1:2, they must have also destroyed the heavens, too. Not impossible, but hardly backed up in scripture.
If the heavens and the earth were created and destroyed in billions of years, and renewed again in six days, you have to read Exodus 20:11 different from what the text actually says.
Keep in mind that there are all kinds of scenarios one can devise of universes God created before He created ours, and that might all be true. We just don't have much biblical evidence of it. Maybe you could share your sources...
Derf
Well-known member
Maybe just the knowledge of good and evil existed before man. Even God seems to acknowledge that He "knows" good and evil in Gen 3:22--And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
I don't really understand the statement. Can God, the unchangeable in nature, ever "know" evil the way that Adam and Eve knew it after disobeying? Was God even including Himself in the "us" in 3:22? If not, then i suppose the angels' mutiny, led by Satan, might have been prior to Adam.
I'd like to suggest that the phrase "to know good and evil" is a phrase of "godness", which is a reference to the ability to make law unto one's self, as I mentioned earlier.
Man, by this time, had EXERCISED the power to make law for himself, by disobeying God's command. Is it this that made him "as one of us"? If so, then I agree with your assertion that evil already existed, and it must have existed among the elohim (which must include angels if it isn't referring to God Himself--see #2 above).
The other option, though, is that the angels had the ability to rebel, even if they hadn't exercised the ability. Maybe when man "became as one of us", he proved his ability to rebel, though I don't know why God would need to see such proof before declaring man capable, especially since the angels--not yet having exercised the capability in my scenario--were already declared capable without such proof.
I think your question is indeed a good one--can good and/or evil exist independently of God? Here are a couple of potential answers:
1) No, because nothing can exist independent of God
2) Yes, evil can, because God is the only good (Mark 10:18), and the only good cannot also be evil.
Unfortunately, the first trumps the second, I think, but once God has created, if He is capable of creating independent thinking in another being (which must be a capability of an omnipotent God), then the second comes into play, allowing for evil independent from God.
By the way, for [MENTION=12045]jamie[/MENTION], if evil exists, whether before or after God created man, then God MUST have an adversary, because evil is adversarial to good (God)--that's really the definition of evil. Man, in his fallen state, is adversarial to God, and thus needed reconciliation. An adversary need not be equally capable to be an adversary.
ad·ver·sar·y ˈadvərˌserē/
noun--one's opponent in a contest, conflict, or dispute.
Neither does an adversary need to have always been so to be so now.
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oatmeal
Well-known member
The fellow has spent time with scripture.
Although I did not listen to the whole video, what he states is scriptural. The young earth theorists are in error.
oatmeal
Well-known member
God being good and perfect, all that He does is good and perfect.
The creation that is described in Genesis 1:2 is not good nor perfect.
There was a cataclysmic event that occurred.
Genesis 1:3 begins to list God's work to restore the heaven and the earth so that man could live.
God gave dominion over all the earth and its lifeforms to Adam and Eve.
What did they do with their dominion?
They sold it and themselves to Satan.
God warned them if they sin they would die.
Satan said they would not surely die.
"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage." (Hebrews 2:14-15)
"Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? For you were bought at a price" (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)
Not really. What can man or angels do to the Most High?
He wasn't elected so he can't be impeached.
Lucifer was perfect in his course of life until iniquity emerged.
His coup was futile, he didn't have a chance.
My belief is his motivation was resentment against the future of God's children.
God is using Satan to our benefit. And Lucifer can be restored if he chooses.
We have an adversary, but God doesn't.
Satan lives at God's discretion.
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:17-19 KJV)
oatmeal
Well-known member
Derf
Well-known member
none of which proves anything about Satan's sin prior to man's creation.
Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app
How did Satan first appear to Eve and Adam there with her?
Satan told them they would not surely die. Was that true?
Do you believe you are immortal like the denominations teach?
I wish we could find out what the Hebrew word was for surely.
I guess there is no way to tell. Do you know? If so, do tell.
Derf
Well-known member
As a serpent.
It was true that Satan told them that, but it was not true what he told them. Why do you ask?
I'm still not sure. I tend to think that death is really a cessation of living, at least the first death is. The second death is to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and there are at least some personalities that are not burned up in the Lake of Fire, but seem to be tormented forever. I tend to think that if SOME entities are not burned up, then it's likely that none of the entities thrown there will be burned up completely. If it's called the "second death", though, I don't believe we should call it "life", but submit to what the scriptures say about it, assuming we can understand what it is saying. I admit of some lack of knowledge about the subject.
I like using the blueletterbible.org site for reading scriptures and searching the scriptures. You can look at the Hebrew word there. It's a repeated word: "muwth muwth", but with prefixes/suffixes I don't understand enough to talk about. What I like to do is compare different English translations, which the blue letter bible helps with. Here is what the Young's Literal Translation says:
[Gen 3:4 YLT] 4 And the serpent saith unto the woman, `Dying, ye do not die,
I presume that the translators are pretty accurate with the rendition, "Surely you shall not die", since it is opposite what God said, and we know that Satan deceived Eve--he lied to her.
Derf
Well-known member
Neither is the creation as described on days 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and early on day 6 perfect, but only "good". If God would not create anything that is not perfect, then He must not have been the creator on those days. It wasn't until he made man and provide a wife for him and finished the creation that it was "very good".
Can God create anything that isn't "very good"? Is it possible that God might not always start out with perfection/completion, but often starts with the beginning and works His way to completion/perfection?
If you knew Hebrew, you'd know. It is not a secret.
In this case, the word for "die" is repeated twice, for emphasis. Like "you will die a death". The word "surely" does not appear there.
beameup
New member
You don't have to "know Hebrew" to understand the text; the software does that for you, showing the Hebrew in parallel. It's really not that difficult to "figure out". For example, kodesh-kodesh is translated Holy-of-holies in most cases.
Elementary my dear Watson :sherlock:
BTW, how long is a yom in Genesis 1:5 ?
Software is nice, but not a substitute for real knowledge. I guess your point is to try and cast doubt on my knowledge, or belittle it. If that makes you feel good- go ahead.
I believe you asked already about the length of a "yom". The word means "day" usually. And the text speaks of evening and morning, so it seems like a normal 24 hour day. But I suspect that you are trying to drag me into some controversy here that I may not be interested in being dragged into. What is your agenda?
beameup
New member
How long is a "yom" when there is no sun (solar system)? (ie: 4th day)