Lucifer and the Ancient Earth

[chair]

How long is a "yom" when there is no sun (solar system)? (ie: 4th day)

no idea. the topic is not of much interest to me.

But why don't you enlighten me, oh wise one? And again- what is your point? It is off subject.

 

[chair]

... But I suspect that you are trying to drag me into some controversy here that I may not be interested in being dragged into. What is your agenda?

I won't deal with the length of a Yom any further, unless you answer the above.

Thank you

 

[beameup]

no idea. the topic is not of much interest to me.

But why don't you enlighten me, oh wise one? And again- what is your point? It is off subject.

The subject of this thread is the "Ancient Earth" and you are participating in the thread.
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by,
and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 90:4

 

[chair]

The subject of this thread is the "Ancient Earth" and you are participating in the thread.
For a thousand years in Your sight
Are like yesterday when it passes by,
and as a watch in the night.
Psalm 90:4

"Lucifer and the ancient Earth"
Again- what is your point about "yom"? And yes, I know about that verse in psalms, I know about the sun being created after days existed. I know all that.
But what is your point? What is your agenda?

 

[jamie]

The second death is to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, and there are at least some personalities that are not burned up in the Lake of Fire, but seem to be tormented forever.

Who are these personalities that are not burned up?

Will there be new heavens and a new earth?

 

[jamie]

You can look at the Hebrew word there. It's a repeated word: "muwth muwth"

So the penalty of death is die, die.

It's been appointed for humans to die once, but what about this second death?

Is there a way to avoid dying twice? I'm dying to know.

 

[jamie]

If you knew Hebrew, you'd know. It is not a secret.

In this case, the word for "die" is repeated twice, for emphasis. Like "you will die a death". The word "surely" does not appear there.

Thanks, I kinda suspected that was the meaning.

 

[beameup]

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!
how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will [ego] ascend into heaven,
I will [ego] exalt my throne above the stars of God:
I will [ego] sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will [ego] ascend above the heights of the clouds;
I will [ego] be like the Most High.
Isaiah 14:12-14

God's Adversary, the origin of ego and pride.

 

[Derf]

Not really. What can man or angels do to the Most High?

He wasn't elected so he can't be impeached.

Lucifer was perfect in his course of life until iniquity emerged.

His coup was futile, he didn't have a chance.

My belief is his motivation was resentment against the future of God's children.

God is using Satan to our benefit. And Lucifer can be restored if he chooses.

We have an adversary, but God doesn't.

Satan lives at God's discretion.

"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." (Ezekiel 28:17-19 KJV)

I didn't say God couldn't destroy Satan at any moment. But that doesn't make him any less an adversary.

Who are these personalities that are not burned up?

Will there be new heavens and a new earth?

There's plenty of this discussion already on the Eternal Conscious Torment thread. I think I'd rather let it stay there.

None of what you've written seems to prove one way or another whether Lucifer/Satan was given the earth prior to man's arrival, or whether it was destroyed before then. Just making that assertion isn't enough.

 

[Derf]

So the penalty of death is die, die.

It's been appointed for humans to die once, but what about this second death?

Is there a way to avoid dying twice? I'm dying to know.

The "die die" or "dying you shall die" isn't necessarily a double death, but an emphasized penalty of death.

Yes, there is a way to avoid dying twice: believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[jamie]

The "die die" or "dying you shall die" isn't necessarily a double death, but an emphasized penalty of death.

There is physical death where a person decomposes and there is spiritual death where a person no longer exists.

 

[jamie]

I didn't say God couldn't destroy Satan at any moment. But that doesn't make him any less an adversary.

How is Satan an adversary to God? God is using Satan for good.

Nor is he an adversary to God's family.

 

[jamie]

The "die die" or "dying you shall die" isn't necessarily a double death, but an emphasized penalty of death.

Can a person die twice?

"Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." (Revelation 20:14)

 

[Hawkins]

Neither is the creation as described on days 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and early on day 6 perfect, but only "good". If God would not create anything that is not perfect, then He must not have been the creator on those days. It wasn't until he made man and provide a wife for him and finished the creation that it was "very good".

Can God create anything that isn't "very good"? Is it possible that God might not always start out with perfection/completion, but often starts with the beginning and works His way to completion/perfection?

Perfect means how good a creation is in accordance to its design purpose. If a creation serves its design perfectly then it is perfect. Humans don't know the full purpose of earth, so humans are not in any position to judge if earth is perfect.

Earth is perfect in that it allows humans to divide such that God's Elect can be told apart openly (under the witness of, say, angels) from the wicked and brought to Heaven legitimately. It is perfect when and only when its purpose is perfectly served.

God can destroy Satan. However it's never about power and capability. It's about legitimacy. God will in the end gives everyone a final judgment, in the mean time entities with freewill can do whatever they wish to but only to a predefined extent where God will exercise the right to stop them.

As part of God's ultimate plan, humans are made to be capable of living an eternity. Our body is just an image for humans to recognize each other. Our soul is the true identity to tell who we are (say by angels other than God) during this eternity even during the period that we don't have a body at all. God has no point to design some humans less lasting than others. That's why souls are immortal. Physical death is just a concept of humans. 'Death' can be something else in terms of entities with immortality such as the angels. What is 'death' of the angels? It's rather a complete isolation from God, instead of killing them. Killing them does nothing good to God. The only benefit of God killing them goes to the angel themselves, as killing them is to provide them with relief. Such a relief cannot be justified until Jesus was crucified the second time, however it won't happen.

A complete isolation from God basically means the entities in such an isolation benefits nothing from God. This universe and earth are not a natural environment as we humans deem them. Our universe is a God made place. The only natural environment is actually hell.

 

[jamie]

The only natural environment is actually hell.

What is an actually hell?

 

[Derf]

Perfect means how good a creation is in accordance to its design purpose. If a creation serves its design perfectly then it is perfect. Humans don't know the full purpose of earth, so humans are not in any position to judge if earth is perfect.

Earth is perfect in that it allows humans to divide such that God's Elect can be told apart openly (under the witness of, say, angels) from the wicked and brought to Heaven legitimately. It is perfect when and only when its purpose is perfectly served.

God can destroy Satan. However it's never about power and capability. It's about legitimacy. God will in the end gives everyone a final judgment, in the mean time entities with freewill can do whatever they wish to but only to a predefined extent where God will exercise the right to stop them.

As part of God's ultimate plan, humans are made to be capable of living an eternity. Our body is just an image for humans to recognize each other. Our soul is the true identity to tell who we are (say by angels other than God) during this eternity even during the period that we don't have a body at all. God has no point to design some humans less lasting than others. That's why souls are immortal. Physical death is just a concept of humans. 'Death' can be something else in terms of entities with immortality such as the angels. What is 'death' of the angels? It's rather a complete isolation from God, instead of killing them. Killing them does nothing good to God. The only benefit of God killing them goes to the angel themselves, as killing them is to provide them with relief. Such a relief cannot be justified until Jesus was crucified the second time, however it won't happen.

A complete isolation from God basically means the entities in such an isolation benefits nothing from God. This universe and earth are not a natural environment as we humans deem them. Our universe is a God made place. The only natural environment is actually hell.

Huh?

 

[Derf]

There is physical death where a person decomposes and there is spiritual death where a person no longer exists.

I know this is one of the explanations. But is it a true one? I'm not sure. It negates the need for a physical resurrection between the first death and the second.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[Derf]

How is Satan an adversary to God? God is using Satan for good.

Nor is he an adversary to God's family.

"Satan" means "adversary". And God's ability to turn evil to good, or repurpose evil for His purposes (like Joseph's brothers) by no means makes those He uses less than adversaries.

Sent from my Z992 using TheologyOnline mobile app

 

[jamie]

I know this is one of the explanations. But is it a true one? I'm not sure. It negates the need for a physical resurrection between the first death and the second.

There's not a physical resurrection before the second resurrection.

 

[jamie]

"Satan" means "adversary". And God's ability to turn evil to good, or repurpose evil for His purposes (like Joseph's brothers) by no means makes those He uses less than adversaries.

Well no wonder God loves him and wants the best for him.

I just always thought an adversary was someone who works against you.

Like all the angels, Satan works for God.