Cross Reference
New member
It has nothing to do with it!
ECT "Lordship 'Salvation'"-perverting the gospel of Christ
- Thread starter john w
- Start date
It has nothing to do with it!
Here are the scriptures.
Romans 11:11, 17 NASB - 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. ... 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
Right Divider
Body part
Why don't you drop your feeble attempts at rhetoric and ADDRESS the points that I made earlier?
Instead of ignoring them as "already ... blah blah... ad nauseam .... blah blah", just answer them.
It should not take a brilliant mind like yours to long to do that.
Right Divider
Body part
Again, how can the NC (where God write's the law in their hearts, so that they can DO it) and the FALL of Israel be operating at THE SAME TIME?
I have no idea where your question comes from.
How can you be grafted in among them if they all fell?
Cross Reference
New member
I repeat, I have addressed them. I am going to go that territory again just to read your lame reasoning again. If you think I haven't addressed them then please explain you labeling me "very confused" in your childish list? Surely you must have a reason for believing that you might offer up??
Cross Reference
New member
It still has nothing to do with ANYONE'S "salvation".
I actually don't know what you mean.
Cross Reference
New member
I mean exactly what I wrote.
Derf
Well-known member
Absolutely! The same Paul that said, two verses after the one where he said to imitate him as he imitates Christ:
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. [1Co 11:3 KJV]
Paul affirms a hierarchical structure of the church/body of Christ (and family, and trinity), just like Jesus did when He recognized the "great faith" of the centurion who was under authority (Matt 8:9). The centurion said "I, too, am a man under authority...". So the centurion, a gentile, was acknowledged for having great faith in recognizing the authority of Jesus--greater faith than any in Israel. If a gentile is recognized as having great faith when he acknowledges Jesus' authority (meaning He has the right to give commands and to be obeyed), why would that change? How would that change?
Now, if Jesus really is "Lord of lords" (which means, He is Lord of all those that are lord over everybody else), as Paul called Him in 1 Tim 6:15, then shouldn't He be our Lord, too? If we are not to submit to Jesus Christ, nor actually DO what He commands, then He isn't really Lord of lords, or even Lord of us, since we make ourselves out to be our own lord--our commandment is of higher authority than Jesus's. And Paul would be preaching a farce to, at one time, preach that we don't have to obey Jesus, and at another call Him "Lord of lords".
So again, going back to the OP, the idea that we can become a disciple of Jesus, or a follower of Jesus, or of the flock of Jesus, or enter into Jesus' kingdom, without at least WANTING to do as He says, is ludicrous in the extreme. Maybe we don't have the POWER to actually do what he says before we are saved, but the desire should be there.
As Paul said to the Philippian jailer: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved". Imagine the jailer saying, "Well, I will believe in this Jesus, but not as Lord, and that should be good enough."
A "belief" in Jesus is in implicit acknowledgement of Him as "Lord". A rejection of Him as "Lord" is a rejection of who He is, and therefore is not a belief in Him at all. And of course, if we call Him Lord, but don't do what He commands, we place ourselves outside His kingdom, according to Matt 7:22-23. Jesus here defines what it means to call Him Lord (not that that isn't the biggest DUH in the whole English language)--it means to do as He commands.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [Mat 7:26 KJV]
I understand that. But what you have said is incomprehensible to me. Meaning, I have no clue about what you are talking about. It does not address anything I have said as far as I know. If it does, I don't know how it does. And I would not be the one to explain what you mean.
Right Divider
Body part
That is my point exactly!
In the body of Christ there is neither Jew NOR Greek (Gal 3:28).
The gospel is the power of God for salvation for both Jew and Greek. Romans 1:16 NASB.
Right Divider
Body part
There was a time when that was true, BUT NOW (as Paul frequently says) it is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek (neither male NOR female, neither bond NOR free [Gal 3:28]).
You must know that God speaks in different manners at different times (Heb 1:1).
Paul says something similar in Gal 3:23
Gal 3:23 (AKJV/PCE)
(3:23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
God has revealed His will and His plans little by little as time has gone by and NOT all at once in the beginning.
You are incorrect.
Right Divider
Body part
Don't just give us your opinion.
Feel free to explain why you think that I don't understand those extremely clear scriptures.
Because you have implied that the gospel used to be the power of God unto salvation to the Jew and the Greek.
Right Divider
Body part
So you forbid God from working in different ways at different times? What gives you this power?
In the gospel of the kingdom, Israel most certainly comes FIRST and the Gentiles that believe God and join with Israel come SECOND (see Matt. 10:21-28 for an example).
But in the gospel of the grace of God (while Israel is fallen), there is NEITHER Jew NOR Greek (Gal 3:28).
I guess that you select the scriptures that you like and throw out the rest (most here seem to like that method).
lifeisgood
New member
You want to know when Romans was written, but I would say that Romans 1:16 NASB can be seen as foundational to the preaching of the gospel, but more importantly the teaching of Paul in the book of Romans.