ECT "Lordship 'Salvation'"-perverting the gospel of Christ

[God's Truth]

Exactly!



Stow it! Pack it in. It was faith, belief with obedience following.

END OF THIS NONSENSE.

Faith and believe are the same thing.


James 2:21
Was not our father Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

James 2:22
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[Right Divider]

Sorry I didn't notice. So beat me for it.

Quite the overly-sensitive response.

Appears? And I am "very confused" in your list of "dummies"?? I don't get it.

Perhaps you might better explain what those things were you consider yourself privy to have understood and everyone else is left out?

I cannot remember ever single thing that got you on the Very Confused list, but you're there for a reason.

Would you like a chance to "clear your record" and start over again?

P.S. Many people try to say that I claim ultimate knowledge or that I'm "playing God" or whatever with this list. The list is my carefully calculated opinion and I don't care if that bother those that are on the list.

 

[Derf]

So you disregard His commands to His followers.

Not at all.

I got it.

Apparently not.

thanks.

What does it mean to be a "follower" of Christ? Does it mean that you literally go everywhere He does? No, it means that you DO what He commands.

What does it mean to be a "disciple" of Christ? It means you receive His teaching. And you can't really receive someone's teaching without actually doing it.

What does it mean to be a "believer" in Christ? It means that you think what He said was/is true. And it means that you accept the facts of His birth, life, death, and resurrection, and expect that what happened to Him in death, He can and will do for you.

This whole post has tried to make a dichotomy of belief in Jesus vs obeying His authority. I don't think such a dichotomy truly exists.

But you are asking a different question--whether our works save us. And the answer is "No"? If we have indeed all sinned, as Paul said, then we all are faced with the guilty verdict and the wages of sin-death.

Think of it this way, if you lived all your life without breaking a single law, but then you murdered someone, but weren't caught and managed to live another 10 years or so without doing anything else wrong--how "unguilty" are you, based on your good life? Could you go before the judge and say, "It's ok, I didn't do that crime (of murder), because I never did it or anything else bad before or since"? The judge would then say "Guilty as charged!"

So something different has to happen to counter our sin and prevent us experiencing the wages of sin. That thing is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It's not just going back to being good!

So to suggest that following all the words of Jesus is what saves us, is only true when you include the part where He says to believe in Him to have everlasting life. But I think it is just as true that if you say you "believe" in Jesus, but don't want to do what He commanded, like "Love your neighbor as yourself" (which doesn't seem to be very evident around here), or "Don't look at a woman to lust after her", then you don't really believe in Him.

Certainly we can't say that Christians never sin. Or John and Paul both wouldn't have allowed that we do sometimes.

But that doesn't mean we do every act of sin we can think of and expect forgiveness. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."[1 John 2:1] But if we do sin, we are to confess it and stop doing it ("repent").

Nor does it mean we have to think of ourselves as somehow unable to break away from sinning. We are no longer slaves to sin. I don't think "God's Truth" was correct in saying the Paul's struggle with sin in Rom 7 was before he believed (because he was obviously wanting to do the things against the church he was doing, and he made a point to say that in his mind he obeyed, but in his flesh he didn't). But that doesn't need to be our excuse for not endeavoring to put to death our fleshly lusts: "So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh" [Rom 8:12]; rather "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" [Rom 8:14]. There's that idea of "following" again. If we are "led" by the Spirit of God, will we be doing things contrary to His will? Of course not--how foolish of some to think that while they are really following the Spirit's leading, that they will be sinning.

John's admonition is a picture of the Christian's walk: "Don't sin! But if you do sin, you have an advocate in Jesus Christ."

 

[Derf]

So why the learrning of "obedience", especially when thought of ss being God?

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting your point. Whatever I may think about Christ and His perfect obedience, He is still talked about as "learning" obedience.

But what does that have to do with the conversation at hand? Please forgive my stupidity.

 

[God's Truth]

Not at all.
Apparently not.

What does it mean to be a "follower" of Christ? Does it mean that you literally go everywhere He does? No, it means that you DO what He commands.

What does it mean to be a "disciple" of Christ? It means you receive His teaching. And you can't really receive someone's teaching without actually doing it.

What does it mean to be a "believer" in Christ? It means that you think what He said was/is true. And it means that you accept the facts of His birth, life, death, and resurrection, and expect that what happened to Him in death, He can and will do for you.

This whole post has tried to make a dichotomy of belief in Jesus vs obeying His authority. I don't think such a dichotomy truly exists.

But you are asking a different question--whether our works save us. And the answer is "No"? If we have indeed all sinned, as Paul said, then we all are faced with the guilty verdict and the wages of sin-death.

Think of it this way, if you lived all your life without breaking a single law, but then you murdered someone, but weren't caught and managed to live another 10 years or so without doing anything else wrong--how "unguilty" are you, based on your good life? Could you go before the judge and say, "It's ok, I didn't do that crime (of murder), because I never did it or anything else bad before or since"? The judge would then say "Guilty as charged!"

So something different has to happen to counter our sin and prevent us experiencing the wages of sin. That thing is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It's not just going back to being good!

So to suggest that following all the words of Jesus is what saves us, is only true when you include the part where He says to believe in Him to have everlasting life. But I think it is just as true that if you say you "believe" in Jesus, but don't want to do what He commanded, like "Love your neighbor as yourself" (which doesn't seem to be very evident around here), or "Don't look at a woman to lust after her", then you don't really believe in Him.

Certainly we can't say that Christians never sin. Or John and Paul both wouldn't have allowed that we do sometimes.

But that doesn't mean we do every act of sin we can think of and expect forgiveness. "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not."[1 John 2:1] But if we do sin, we are to confess it and stop doing it ("repent").

Nor does it mean we have to think of ourselves as somehow unable to break away from sinning. We are no longer slaves to sin. I don't think "God's Truth" was correct in saying the Paul's struggle with sin in Rom 7 was before he believed (because he was obviously wanting to do the things against the church he was doing, and he made a point to say that in his mind he obeyed, but in his flesh he didn't). But that doesn't need to be our excuse for not endeavoring to put to death our fleshly lusts: "So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh" [Rom 8:12]; rather "For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God" [Rom 8:14]. There's that idea of "following" again. If we are "led" by the Spirit of God, will we be doing things contrary to His will? Of course not--how foolish of some to think that while they are really following the Spirit's leading, that they will be sinning.

John's admonition is a picture of the Christian's walk: "Don't sin! But if you do sin, you have an advocate in Jesus Christ."

Nothing you wrote here changes the fact that we have to obey.

 

[Right Divider]

Nothing you wrote here changes the fact that we have to obey.

If perfect obedience was a requirement of eternal life, nobody would get it but Jesus.

 

[God's Truth]

If perfect obedience was a requirement of eternal life, nobody would get it but Jesus.

A teaching from Jesus we have to obey is that IF we do sin, we are to confess and repent of it.

 

[Derf]

Nothing you wrote here changes the fact that we have to obey.

Are you trying to pick a fight? Or stir up strife? Would that make you then a perverse person (Proverbs 16:28) or just hot-tempered (Prov 15:18)?

I never tried to say we don't have to obey. What I've tried to say is that our obedience doesn't save us--it can't unless we are perfectly obedient from the time we are born (and then there's some question about inherited guilt, or at least inherited penalty, from Adam's sin). That's why we need Christ's sacrifice.

But our disobedience does kill us. That's why we need Christ's advocacy.

But why would Christ want to advocate for someone that has no desire or intention to obey Him? (before you argue, just know that I'm agreeing with you in large part).

 

[God's Truth]

Are you trying to pick a fight? Or stir up strife? Would that make you then a perverse person (Proverbs 16:28) or just hot-tempered (Prov 15:18)?

We are in a debate group, false accuser.

Are you calling Apostle Paul a perverse person?


We are to debate, even in public debate. We are to argue, vigorously refute, sharply dispute, persuade, oppose, defend, confirm, command, preach, teach, instruct, rebuke, encourage, and contend.

I never tried to say we don't have to obey. What I've tried to say is that our obedience doesn't save us--it can't unless we are perfectly obedient from the time we are born (and then there's some question about inherited guilt, or at least inherited penalty, from Adam's sin). That's why we need Christ's sacrifice.

How do you jump from sinning while saved to sinning when born?

But our disobedience does kill us. That's why we need Christ's advocacy.

But why would Christ want to advocate for someone that has no desire or intention to obey Him? (before you argue, just know that I'm agreeing with you in large part).

Where do you get that I would argue about that?

 

[God's Truth]

Acts 9:29
He talked and debated with the Grecian Jews, but they tried to kill him.

Acts 15:1 Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved." This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question.

Acts 18:28
For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the synagogue and spoke boldly there for three months, arguing persuasively about the kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate: they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them.

Titus 1:13 This saying is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints.

 

[Right Divider]

A teaching from Jesus we have to obey is that IF we do sin, we are to confess and repent of it.

So you think we should focus on OUR failures rather that GOD's forgiveness of our sins in Jesus Christ?

You are just SO SELF-CENTERED and not GOD-CENTERED.

Col 2:9-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (2:11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (2:12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
​

You need to accept God's salvation in Jesus Christ.

 

[lifeisgood]

We are in a debate group, false accuser.

Isn't it interesting when a person say, 'stop insulting me' constantly, then turns around constantly and 'insult' another instead of OBEYING Jesus and turning the other cheek.

Especially when the person being called 'false accuser',

said ---
"(before you argue, just know that I'm agreeing with you {in this case agreeing with the one insulting, i.e., gt} in large part)"

 

[God's Truth]

Isn't it interesting when a person say, 'stop insulting me' constantly, then turns around constantly and 'insult' another instead of OBEYING Jesus and turning the other cheek.

Especially when the person being called 'false accuser',

He falsely accused me of being a perverse person.

Why are you defending his false accusations? Oh yeah, I know why, it is because it is what you falsely call me too.

 

[God's Truth]

So you think we should focus on OUR failures rather that GOD's forgiveness of our sins in Jesus Christ?

You are just SO SELF-CENTERED and not GOD-CENTERED.

Col 2:9-15 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:9) For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. (2:10) And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (2:11) In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (2:12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (2:13) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (2:14) Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (2:15) [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
​

You need to accept God's salvation in Jesus Christ.

I was quoting scripture. haaaaa

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

 

[Cross Reference]

I'm sorry, but I'm still not getting your point. Whatever I may think about Christ and His perfect obedience, He is still talked about as "learning" obedience.

But what does that have to do with the conversation at hand? Please forgive my stupidity.

Why did Jesus have to learn anything if we say He was literally God in flesh, more than the prophecied body prepared for the Word of God, the human expression of God, emptied of all glorification, that people could see and touch? Why the Obedience question except to demonstrate the son-ship process purposed for all who would believe Him to become what He became, a son brought unto Glory, the "First of First Fruits" who would call those following in His steps, "Brethren"?

 

[Right Divider]

I was quoting scripture. haaaaa

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

If you think that ALL SCRIPTURE is currently the instructions that you are to obey, then you'd better obey it ALL.

God is CURRENTLY dispensing His grace FREELY, but you will NOT accept it.

Rom 3:21-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (3:22) Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (3:24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (3:25) Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (3:26) To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. ​

 

[God's Truth]

If you think that ALL SCRIPTURE is currently the instructions that you are to obey, then you'd better obey it ALL.

God is CURRENTLY dispensing His grace FREELY, but you will NOT accept it.

Rom 3:21-26 (AKJV/PCE)​

(3:21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; (3:22) Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; (3:24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: (3:25) Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; (3:26) To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. ​

Paul is speaking about the CEREMONIAL/PURIFICATION WORKS of the law.

 

[God's Truth]

The Jews USED to HAVE TO CLEAN THEMSELVES.

 

[God's Truth]

For over 1,600 years the Jews used to have to clean themselves.


Leviticus 15:32 These are the regulations for a man with a discharge, for anyone made unclean by an emission of semen, for a woman in her monthly period, for a man or a woman with a discharge, and for a man who has sexual relations with a woman who is ceremonially unclean.


Anyone who even SAT where an unclean person sat was also unclean.

What did a unclean person have to do?

They had to sacrifice animals.

Those are the works Paul was speaking about that we do not have to do because faith in Jesus' blood cleans us.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul is speaking about the CEREMONIAL/PURIFICATION WORKS of the law.

Absolute NONSENSE that you have NEVER even REMOTELY attempted to PROVE.

The LAW of MOSES is always a WHOLE. It cannot be broken.