ECT "Lordship 'Salvation'"-perverting the gospel of Christ

[Derf]

No one here has any animosity, much less a great deal of animosity toward gt.
We have animosity against her false doctrine of 'UNbeliever has to OBEY God FIRST and then because said UNbeliever OBEY God then God will save said UNbeliever because of their work.'

I'm not sure I believe you, that there's no animosity toward GT. It shows itself everytime someone (like you perhaps?) misconstrues her words. Is it not enough for her to say:

I do not say Jesus saves unbelievers.

But if she is indeed inconsistent in her application of Jesus words, that should be pointed out to her. Just as she should be able to point it out to others. All, hopefully, given and received in a loving way. (It's hard, folks, but with the Spirit's help, we CAN show love to the brethren, as long as we're not spending all of our time trying to tell everyone that doesn't agree with us in some point that they aren't brethren.)

Unequivocally, yes.

Just this week, I asked her to obey Jesus by selling everything she has and follow Him because she said to me specifically that she OBEYS everything Jesus commanded. She responded that that commandment was not for her, then, she turns around and say that she obeys EVERYthing Jesus commanded.

So, I asked her to get out of her house and go to every nation in the world as Jesus commanded and she also said that was impossible.

So, yes, gt, says you have to obey all Jesus' commandments and then she turn right around and does NOT obey Him.

Surely you can do better than that! "Sell all you have" has to be one of the lamest and over-used arguments in this thread and many others. Lamest, because it is obviously a false dichotomy--Jesus did not tell everyone to sell everything, nor did many do so, yet they were still in the body of Christ. But it shows a lack of respect for Jesus' words to misuse them that way. It also shows a lack of discernment--Jesus used discernment with the young man who had great possessions, when He told him to sell all he had.

Jesus' command to go to every nation in the world was not to one person, but to a group. So if anyone goes to any nation, he is corporately obeying that command. So if someone presents the gospel to TOL, where it is certainly needed, that helps fulfill the command to go to every nation.

Why didn't you tell GT to "Go show yourself to the priest", as that was one of Jesus' commands? But it shows the ridiculousness of the argument.

But are you so desperate to avoid Jesus commands that you twist His words in that way? Are you serious that you have no desire to obey His commands--the ones that apply to you? Don't you want to submit your very soul to the Lord of the universe? The OP makes it sound like that's anathema to the gospel, but it's not.

Don't you want to "Love your neighbor as yourself"?
Don't you want to "go to every nation" and make disciples, either by going yourself, or by sending and supporting others?
Don't you want to forgive your brother 70 times 7?
Don't you want to go to your brother when you have offended him, leaving your gift at the altar, until you reconcile with him, or at least make the attempt?
Don't you want to keep from lusting after women so you don't commit adultery in your heart?
Don't you want to call Him "Lord, Lord" and really mean it, because you know Him and He knows you, and you are willing (if not always perfectly able) to do His Father's will?

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [Mat 7:21 NIV]
​

If you don't, why are you interested in His salvation at all? Salvation to what--eternity with Him? Wouldn't that be an eternal hell if you don't want to do what He wants you to do, but you have to, since His will is done in heaven?

I question whether GT is able to perform all those things (and more) that Jesus commanded. I've shown that she doesn't do them perfectly--even when properly interpretted--and I hope she takes note and shows grace to others that don't do all Jesus' words perfectly (including me). And I would hope she would stop saying she obeys perfectly (if not, then she is bearing false witness).

But her desire to obey, and her desire to get others to obey, seem genuine. I hope they are. And I would hope everybody would want to obey Jesus in every way they can think of, even if imperfectly, just as Paul wasn't able to perfectly obey, but he still WANTED to obey the law.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [Rom 7:15 NIV]
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; [Rom 7:22 NIV]​

 

[lifeisgood]

I'm not sure I believe you, that there's no animosity toward GT. It shows itself everytime someone (like you perhaps?) misconstrues her words. Is it not enough for her to say:

Her words are not misconstrued. She says OBEY then you will be SAVED.

But if she is indeed inconsistent in her application of Jesus words, that should be pointed out to her.

It has been done by more than one in here for a long time in very different styles.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.

Just as she should be able to point it out to others. All, hopefully, given and received in a loving way. (It's hard, folks, but with the Spirit's help, we CAN show love to the brethren, as long as we're not spending all of our time trying to tell everyone that doesn't agree with us in some point that they aren't brethren.)

The brethren have shown her love and respect.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.

Surely you can do better than that! "Sell all you have" has to be one of the lamest and over-used arguments in this thread and many others. Lamest, because it is obviously a false dichotomy--Jesus did not tell everyone to sell everything, nor did many do so, yet they were still in the body of Christ. But it shows a lack of respect for Jesus' words to misuse them that way. It also shows a lack of discernment--Jesus used discernment with the young man who had great possessions, when He told him to sell all he had.

Well, I am not selling anything for I have nothing to sell.
And I do understand that Jesus did not say for everybody to sell everything HOWEVER if YOU say 'I, Derf FOLLOW everything Jesus said and you should also', then everyone will say that you believe that you have to sell everything because you (whoever you are) BOAST that YOU OBEY ALL the words of Jesus.

That is what gt does. 'I, gt, FOLLOW every commandment of Jesus.' And when that is pointed out, she then, e.g., should sell everything she has and follow Him, she retorts with 'well not that commandment.'

Jesus' command to go to every nation in the world was not to one person, but to a group. So if anyone goes to any nation, he is corporately obeying that command. So if someone presents the gospel to TOL, where it is certainly needed, that helps fulfill the command to go to every nation.

You're preaching to the wrong choir.

Why didn't you tell GT to "Go show yourself to the priest", as that was one of Jesus' commands? But it shows the ridiculousness of the argument.

That was going to be my next one, and then I am taking the time to answer you.
I like to go one by one with gt, otherwise, she says that no one has ever told her that particular one.
But that particular commandment of Jesus that you have not pointed out alone, she follows it, until you point it out to her and then, it's 'well, not that one either.'

But are you so desperate to avoid Jesus commands that you twist His words in that way? Are you serious that you have no desire to obey His commands--the ones that apply to you? Don't you want to submit your very soul to the Lord of the universe? The OP makes it sound like that's anathema to the gospel, but it's not.

I am taking that you have not been here for long.

Don't you want to "Love your neighbor as yourself"?
Don't you want to "go to every nation" and make disciples, either by going yourself, or by sending and supporting others?
Don't you want to forgive your brother 70 times 7?
Don't you want to go to your brother when you have offended him, leaving your gift at the altar, until you reconcile with him, or at least make the attempt?
Don't you want to keep from lusting after women so you don't commit adultery in your heart?
Don't you want to call Him "Lord, Lord" and really mean it, because you know Him and He knows you, and you are willing (if not always perfectly able) to do His Father's will?

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [Mat 7:21 NIV]
​

If you don't, why are you interested in His salvation at all? Salvation to what--eternity with Him? Wouldn't that be an eternal hell if you don't want to do what He wants you to do, but you have to, since His will is done in heaven?

You also believe as gt that OBEY then you will be SAVED?

I question whether GT is able to perform all those things (and more) that Jesus commanded. I've shown that she doesn't do them perfectly--even when properly interpretted--and I hope she takes note and shows grace to others that don't do all Jesus' words perfectly (including me). And I would hope she would stop saying she obeys perfectly (if not, then she is bearing false witness).

You're beginning to get a glimpse of gt's picture.

But her desire to obey, and her desire to get others to obey, seem genuine. I hope they are. And I would hope everybody would want to obey Jesus in every way they can think of, even if imperfectly, just as Paul wasn't able to perfectly obey, but he still WANTED to obey the law.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [Rom 7:15 NIV]
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; [Rom 7:22 NIV]​

You need to be here for a while longer before you can understand where gt is coming from.

If many of us still continue pointing to gt her inconsistencies it is BECAUSE we love her.

I would hope that if I am speaking to a brother or sister and I say 'One day I decided that I OBEYED Jesus and I have been water baptized three times in three different denominations and I discovered that they are all evil denominations and then I decided I - because I OBEYED all of Jesus' commandments - I am saved' --- that's gt's testimony BTW, then I would hope that that brother or sister, would continue to tell me that I am bringing to God the works of my hands and that work has been rejected already by God because the ONLY work God accepts is Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary alone, total, and exclusively, plus absolutely nothing.

One example of what gt says:

I obey everything Jesus tells us all to do.

No one here is against gt, but against her false doctrine of OBEY then God will SAVE you or I obey everything Jesus says.
Wait until you find meshak and tetelestai and others.

Welcome aboard.

 

[lifeisgood]

No such thing as unbelievers being saved. Your core to defend false doctrine is to lie about me.

I ain't feeling sorry for you feeling sorry for yourself.

Not ONE person in the whole world EVER has been able to OBEY God to be SAVED.

 

[lifeisgood]

No such thing as unbelievers being saved. Your core to defend false doctrine is to lie about me.

Here you go again with your false doctrine.

Jesus contradicts your false doctrine: "It is not the healthy [saved] who need a doctor [Redeemer], but the sick [UNbelievers]. I have not come to call the righteous [saved], but sinners [UNbelievers]." (Mark 2:17)

No such thing as BELIEVERS being saved because they have already believed in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary and are already secured in Him and what He did.

 

[lifeisgood]

What else does Satan have for people to defend his false doctrine? He has lying for one thing.

You should preach to the person looking back at you on the mirror and stop saying to that person that you OBEY every commandment of Jesus and because of YOUR obeying you are saved; therefore, totally rejecting Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary, for His finished work does NOT need THE WORKS OF OUR HANDS to finish what He has already finished.

The works of our hands have already been rejected by God.

 

[Cross Reference]

Jesus said: "come unto Me". It was NOT a command. Should we now say He didn't mean it?

 

[lifeisgood]

You are not speaking the truth. I do not say Jesus saves unbelievers.

Really? Does he save those who are already saved then?

I always say we have to believe and obey.

You always say you OBEYED then was saved.

I obey everything Jesus tells us all to do.

I would suggest you start singing another song, for you have said that you do not obey EVERY thing Jesus tells us.

Jesus does NOT tell everyone to sell their house.

:doh: But you say:

I obey everything Jesus tells us all to do.

Jesus does NOT tell everyone to become traveling ministers.

:doh: But you say:

I obey everything Jesus tells us all to do.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm not sure I believe you, that there's no animosity toward GT. It shows itself everytime someone (like you perhaps?) misconstrues her words. Is it not enough for her to say:



But if she is indeed inconsistent in her application of Jesus words, that should be pointed out to her. Just as she should be able to point it out to others. All, hopefully, given and received in a loving way. (It's hard, folks, but with the Spirit's help, we CAN show love to the brethren, as long as we're not spending all of our time trying to tell everyone that doesn't agree with us in some point that they aren't brethren.)


Surely you can do better than that! "Sell all you have" has to be one of the lamest and over-used arguments in this thread and many others. Lamest, because it is obviously a false dichotomy--Jesus did not tell everyone to sell everything, nor did many do so, yet they were still in the body of Christ. But it shows a lack of respect for Jesus' words to misuse them that way. It also shows a lack of discernment--Jesus used discernment with the young man who had great possessions, when He told him to sell all he had.

Jesus' command to go to every nation in the world was not to one person, but to a group. So if anyone goes to any nation, he is corporately obeying that command. So if someone presents the gospel to TOL, where it is certainly needed, that helps fulfill the command to go to every nation.

Why didn't you tell GT to "Go show yourself to the priest", as that was one of Jesus' commands? But it shows the ridiculousness of the argument.

But are you so desperate to avoid Jesus commands that you twist His words in that way? Are you serious that you have no desire to obey His commands--the ones that apply to you? Don't you want to submit your very soul to the Lord of the universe? The OP makes it sound like that's anathema to the gospel, but it's not.

Don't you want to "Love your neighbor as yourself"?
Don't you want to "go to every nation" and make disciples, either by going yourself, or by sending and supporting others?
Don't you want to forgive your brother 70 times 7?
Don't you want to go to your brother when you have offended him, leaving your gift at the altar, until you reconcile with him, or at least make the attempt?
Don't you want to keep from lusting after women so you don't commit adultery in your heart?
Don't you want to call Him "Lord, Lord" and really mean it, because you know Him and He knows you, and you are willing (if not always perfectly able) to do His Father's will?

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [Mat 7:21 NIV]
​

If you don't, why are you interested in His salvation at all? Salvation to what--eternity with Him? Wouldn't that be an eternal hell if you don't want to do what He wants you to do, but you have to, since His will is done in heaven?

I question whether GT is able to perform all those things (and more) that Jesus commanded. I've shown that she doesn't do them perfectly--even when properly interpretted--and I hope she takes note and shows grace to others that don't do all Jesus' words perfectly (including me). And I would hope she would stop saying she obeys perfectly (if not, then she is bearing false witness).

But her desire to obey, and her desire to get others to obey, seem genuine. I hope they are. And I would hope everybody would want to obey Jesus in every way they can think of, even if imperfectly, just as Paul wasn't able to perfectly obey, but he still WANTED to obey the law.

I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. [Rom 7:15 NIV]
For in my inner being I delight in God's law; [Rom 7:22 NIV]​

You cannot help yourself can you? Stop judging me, you are not fit to do so anyway.

 

[God's Truth]

Like Derf, people tried to judge Apostle Paul. I like what Paul says:

1 Corinthians 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.

 

[God's Truth]

Her words are not misconstrued. She says OBEY then you will be SAVED.



It has been done by more than one in here for a long time in very different styles.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.



The brethren have shown her love and respect.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.



Well, I am not selling anything for I have nothing to sell.
And I do understand that Jesus did not say for everybody to sell everything HOWEVER if YOU say 'I, Derf FOLLOW everything Jesus said and you should also', then everyone will say that you believe that you have to sell everything because you (whoever you are) BOAST that YOU OBEY ALL the words of Jesus.

That is what gt does. 'I, gt, FOLLOW every commandment of Jesus.' And when that is pointed out, she then, e.g., should sell everything she has and follow Him, she retorts with 'well not that commandment.'



You're preaching to the wrong choir.



That was going to be my next one, and then I am taking the time to answer you.
I like to go one by one with gt, otherwise, she says that no one has ever told her that particular one.
But that particular commandment of Jesus that you have not pointed out alone, she follows it, until you point it out to her and then, it's 'well, not that one either.'



I am taking that you have not been here for long.



You also believe as gt that OBEY then you will be SAVED?



You're beginning to get a glimpse of gt's picture.



You need to be here for a while longer before you can understand where gt is coming from.

If many of us still continue pointing to gt her inconsistencies it is BECAUSE we love her.

I would hope that if I am speaking to a brother or sister and I say 'One day I decided that I OBEYED Jesus and I have been water baptized three times in three different denominations and I discovered that they are all evil denominations and then I decided I - because I OBEYED all of Jesus' commandments - I am saved' --- that's gt's testimony BTW, then I would hope that that brother or sister, would continue to tell me that I am bringing to God the works of my hands and that work has been rejected already by God because the ONLY work God accepts is Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary alone, total, and exclusively, plus absolutely nothing.

One example of what gt says:



No one here is against gt, but against her false doctrine of OBEY then God will SAVE you or I obey everything Jesus says.
Wait until you find meshak and tetelestai and others.

Welcome aboard.

I say what Jesus says about he saves those who obey.


See John 14:23, and Acts 5:32 among MANY other scriptures.

You cannot put even one scripture aside; so says Jesus Christ.

 

[God's Truth]

I ain't feeling sorry for you feeling sorry for yourself.

Not ONE person in the whole world EVER has been able to OBEY God to be SAVED.

Show that from the scriptures. There is no scripture anywhere that says that.

 

[God's Truth]

Here you go again with your false doctrine.

Jesus contradicts your false doctrine: "It is not the healthy [saved] who need a doctor [Redeemer], but the sick [UNbelievers]. I have not come to call the righteous [saved], but sinners [UNbelievers]." (Mark 2:17)

You have no idea what that means. Let me help you. That scripture means ALL ARE SINNERS, and to get saved, one MUST admit to being a sinner.

No such thing as BELIEVERS being saved because they have already believed in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary and are already secured in Him and what He did.

What?

 

[God's Truth]

You should preach to the person looking back at you on the mirror and stop saying to that person that you OBEY every commandment of Jesus and because of YOUR obeying you are saved; therefore, totally rejecting Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary, for His finished work does NOT need THE WORKS OF OUR HANDS to finish what He has already finished.

The works of our hands have already been rejected by God.

Obeying Jesus is not shameful and not sinful no matter how many times you tell us it is.

 

[meshak]

You all know that I don't like gt myself, but her opponents are even worse because you seem to oppose to obey Jesus' teachings and commands.

that's the bottom line of your animosity against gt.

 

[Derf]

Her words are not misconstrued. She says OBEY then you will be SAVED.



It has been done by more than one in here for a long time in very different styles.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.



The brethren have shown her love and respect.
She insists OBEY then God will SAVE you.



Well, I am not selling anything for I have nothing to sell.
And I do understand that Jesus did not say for everybody to sell everything HOWEVER if YOU say 'I, Derf FOLLOW everything Jesus said and you should also', then everyone will say that you believe that you have to sell everything because you (whoever you are) BOAST that YOU OBEY ALL the words of Jesus.

That is what gt does. 'I, gt, FOLLOW every commandment of Jesus.' And when it is pointed out that she then, e.g., should sell everything she has and follow Him, she retorts with 'well not that commandment.'



You're preaching to the wrong choir.



That was going to be my next one, and then I am taking the time to answer you.
I like to go one by one with gt, otherwise, she says that no one has ever told her that particular one.
But that particular commandment of Jesus that you have not pointed out alone, she follows it, until you point it out to her and then, it's 'well, not that one either.'



I am taking that you have not been here for long.



You also believe as gt that OBEY then you will be SAVED?



You're beginning to get a glimpse of gt's picture.



You need to be here for a while longer before you can understand where gt is coming from.

If many of us still continue pointing to gt her inconsistencies it is BECAUSE we love her.

I would hope that if I am speaking to a brother or sister and I say 'One day I decided that I OBEYED Jesus and I have been water baptized three times in three different denominations and I discovered that they are all evil denominations and then I decided I - because I OBEYED all of Jesus' commandments - I am saved' --- that's gt's testimony BTW, then I would hope that that brother or sister, would continue to tell me that I am bringing to God the works of my hands and that work has been rejected already by God because the ONLY work God accepts is Jesus Christ and His finished work on the Cross of Calvary alone, total, and exclusively, plus absolutely nothing.

One example of what gt says:



No one here is against gt, but against her false doctrine of OBEY then God will SAVE you or I obey everything Jesus says.
Wait until you find meshak and tetelestai and others.

Welcome aboard.

Thanks for your explanation. You are right I haven't been around very long, but long enough to be the brunt of one GT stab when I pointed out a discrepancy. But not every command should be seen as a discrepancy--sell all you have, and go show yourself to the priest are 2 that are obviously not included in the commands we need to fulfill today (at least not all of us). If GT can't say "follow Jesus" without agreeing that we all have to go show ourselves to the priests, then the conversation is pointless.

I've also been "stabbed" by one or two that are quick to assign people to hell for saying we should actually want to do what Jesus says to do. There's got to be a reasonable and correct middle ground, that doesn't take away from Jesus finished work on the cross, but that still recognizes His kingship (He makes the rules).

We aren't saved by our works, because a good work of ours can't cancel out a bad work. It requires a death to pay for sins.

But neither are we saved from sin to continue in sin.

In most, if not all, "true" conversions in the bible, there was some aspect of repentance displayed.
Eg., the thief on the cross, Zaccheus, the 3000 in Jerusalem on Pentecost; even the Philippian jailer recognized a need to be saved.

And the ones that seem like they weren't "true" conversions, like the rich young ruler, Ananias and Saphira, or Simon the sorcerer, displayed their lack of desire to follow the words of Christ or his apostles, or the law (in Ananias' and Saphira's case, when they lied).

Is it possible to "believe" in Jesus without wanting to follow His commands? What do we believe about Jesus if it isn't that He has been given all authority in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18)? And authority is the right to make the rules, to tell people what to do. And rules/commands don't mean anything if the people under your "authority" don't have to follow them.

 

[meshak]

Derf,

It seems that Jesus' teachings and commands are not valued as it should by most churches.

Their excuse is that you cannot earn salvation by works.

Bottom line is that Jesus commands His followers to obey Him.

Why do you have the need to add "your works will not save you" doctrine?

Have you thought about it?

thanks.

 

[God's Truth]

Thanks for your explanation. You are right I haven't been around very long, but long enough to be the brunt of one GT stab when I pointed out a discrepancy. But not every command should be seen as a discrepancy--sell all you have, and go show yourself to the priest are 2 that are obviously not included in the commands we need to fulfill today (at least not all of us). If GT can't say "follow Jesus" without agreeing that we all have to go show ourselves to the priests, then the conversation is pointless.

I've also been "stabbed" by one or two that are quick to assign people to hell for saying we should actually want to do what Jesus says to do. There's got to be a reasonable and correct middle ground, that doesn't take away from Jesus finished work on the cross, but that still recognizes His kingship (He makes the rules).

We aren't saved by our works, because a good work of ours can't cancel out a bad work. It requires a death to pay for sins.

But neither are we saved from sin to continue in sin.

In most, if not all, "true" conversions in the bible, there was some aspect of repentance displayed.
Eg., the thief on the cross, Zaccheus, the 3000 in Jerusalem on Pentecost; even the Philippian jailer recognized a need to be saved.

And the ones that seem like they weren't "true" conversions, like the rich young ruler, Ananias and Saphira, or Simon the sorcerer, displayed their lack of desire to follow the words of Christ or his apostles, or the law (in Ananias' and Saphira's case, when they lied).

Is it possible to "believe" in Jesus without wanting to follow His commands? What do we believe about Jesus if it isn't that He has been given all authority in heaven and earth (Matt 28:18)? And authority is the right to make the rules, to tell people what to do. And rules/commands don't mean anything if the people under your "authority" don't have to follow them.

You are delusional, for I defended myself against your "stab".

As for your mixed messages about obeying Jesus---there is never ever a bad time or better time to obey him.

We have to obey to be saved, and we have to obey to stay saved.

 

[God's Truth]

You all know that I don't like gt myself, but her opponents are even worse because you seem to oppose to obey Jesus' teachings and commands.

that's the bottom line of your animosity against gt.

You don't like me because I defended Paul against your false judgment of him, and I defended myself from the false judgments of me from you.

 

[God's Truth]

The WORKS we no longer have to do are the ceremonial/purification works.

Nowhere anywhere are we told we no longer have to obey and that obeying disqualifies us and condemns.

Where is the common sense in that?

 

[Right Divider]

The WORKS we no longer have to do are the ceremonial/purification works.

Nowhere anywhere are we told we no longer have to obey and that obeying disqualifies us and condemns.

Where is the common sense in that?

God never divided the law between ceremonial and otherwise. That's just your attempt to make your bogus story true.