Katrina Damage

[wickwoman]

Exactly, Crow. It's not so much that these people deserve or don't deserve to be shot. But the fact is some 2 year old might spend another night being eaten alive by mosquitos while he waits on a rooftop with his family. And if shooting some looter who's hampering rescue efforts will get him to safety faster, then it's an unfortunate and ugly thing that has to be done. It's like a war, really. There are innocent people suffering and those who are hampering the end of their suffering should be stopped.

 

[wickwoman]

The reason we won't be seeing any of those broadcasters asking why those black people are so poor to begin with is because they already know the answer, and they don't want to acknowledge it. They know that the reason those people are so poor is because they aren't.

How? Please explain.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Well, no I don't think people ought to be shot for stealing a TV, but the fact that they are stealing a TV in the middle of that tragedy makes it worse to me than stealing otherwise. It just makes me mad that those people are in the midst of that tragedy, dead bodies all around, and they think "Hey, great opportunity for a free TV!" The decayed morality is disgusting. Stealing food and shoes I understand.

As long as they are not stealing cable, now that's wrong...

Seriously, one might consider information provided by a TV vital to survival in that
situation, knowing where food and water distribution points and emergency info.

Probably could get away with stealing radios, though.

Dave

 

[Crow]

CNN was just talking about snipers firing on emergency vehicles taking people to a New Orleans hospital. I've been hearing this stuff since I turned the tube on a couple of hours ago. If a person is going to try to take the lives of others as they are being rescued, then that "sniper" should be killed if that's what it's going to take to preserve other lives.

And contrary to what some have expressed, few people respond to disaster by trying to thwart rescue efforts. But there are always a few sickos, and they cannot be permitted to cause others to suffer furthur.

 

[PureX]

A man watches his wife or child die in his arms, while the emergency helicopters fly back and forth overhead all day long, ignoring his screams and jestures for help. He believes that they're ignoring him because he's poor and black, because all his life the people with the power to help him have been ignoring him because he's poor and black.This doesn't make his violent rage at the emergency workers right. But it does make it understandable. These are the kinds of things that are happening.

 

[Crow]

A man watches his wife or child die in his arms, while the emergency helicopters fly back and forth overhead all day long, ignoring his screams and jestures for help. He believes that they're ignoring him because he's poor and black, because all his life the people with the power to help him have been ignoring him because he's poor and black.This doesn't make his violent response right. But it does make it understandable. These are the kinds of things that are happening.

It might be understandable, Purex, but that doesn't mean that he should not be shot if he's interfering with rescues. And precious few people are available, you can't take manpower away from rescue efforts which are already spread too thin to try to reason with people who are shooting at rescuers.

 

[beanieboy]

Everyone is angry and desperate in that situation. A few have decided to respond by hindering rescue efforts at best, and at worst putting rescue workers and other victim's lives at risk, possibly causing their deaths. I can understand the feelings of rage and desperation. But society cannot allow people's lives to be lost out of understanding of the feelings of the few who choose to act upon those feelings in an unlawful and unwarrented manner.

If someone is shooting at emergency vehicles and hindering the rescue efforts, then they should be stopped. If it takes shooting them to stop them, and I'm guessing that it will be necessary to avoid undue risk to rescue workers and law enforcement/ military in most of those situations, so be it.

If someone started firing on rescue vehicles, they do need to be stopped. I agree.

What bothers me is that people are looking at it from a very different situation - one in which you are sitting comfortable in your office, typing on a computer because you have electricity, in no danger, have a place to live, food to eat, and a bed to sleep in, wondering why chaos has broken out to people that have none of that.

I don't excuse someone shooting at a rescue vehicle.
But people in panic mode do things they never thought that they would.

As I used in an example:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/iraq/hundreds-killed-in-baghdad-stampede/2005/09/01/1125302656200.html
"Most of the victims were women and children who drowned or were trampled."

These people were going to Mecca. Were you to ask someone who stepped on a child in panic if he would ever do such a thing, he would swear he wouldn't.

Even Peter, when he feared for his life, denied that he knew Jesus.

Panic and fear makes people do that opposite of what they think they would.

I simply wish that we would stop focussing on the few incidents of people who did something really stupid, like shoot at a rescue vehicle, and instead, focus on what we can do to help the victims.

 

[wickwoman]

A man watches his wife or child die in his arms, while the emergency helicopters fly back and forth overhead all day long, ignoring his screams and jestures for help. He believes that they're ignoring him because he's poor and black, because all his life the people with the power to help him have been ignoring him because he's poor and black.This doesn't make his violent rage at the emergency workers right. But it does make it understandable. These are the kinds of things that are happening.

That man has suffered a terrible tragedy. But he is placing blame in the wrong place, again. And, if he causes other men to lose their wives and children, he should be stopped. Besides, there are no helicopter pilots with little color charts deciding which ones to pick up, that's ridiculous. "Hmmm, that one's mulatto, we'll get him later. Wait, that one's just really tan. Pick him up." And, if that's what he thinks it's all about, then he's been confused his whole life. Sad, really. You can't always find someone to blame. And you shouldn't try. It makes people into monsters. Bad stuff just happens. There's nobody you can blame for this tragedy.

 

[PureX]

How? Please explain.

Most of us don't believe in sharing the wealth. We believe in competing with each other to get as much as we can, and ignoring those who get left out by the struggle. But we don't like acknowledging the fact that this is really what we believe, and who we are, and what happens to other people as a result.

 

[wickwoman]

Most of us don't believe in sharing the wealth. We believe in competing with each other to get as much as we can, and ignoring those who get left out by the struggle. But we don't like acknowledging the fact that this is really what we believe, and who we are, and what happens to other people as a result.

I'd like to think it's not "most of us," Purex, but I don't know. Maybe I'm just Polyanna.

 

[PureX]

Bad stuff just happens. There's nobody you can blame for this tragedy.

Yet look at all the people passing blame - including the people shooting at the emergency vehicles. Americans love to pass blame, and then shoot at the people they pass the blame onto. There are hundreds of threads on TOL passing blame onto other people and then calling for them to be shot. Are we really so surprised that people are shooting at the helicopters?

 

[Crow]

If someone started firing on rescue vehicles, they do need to be stopped. I agree.

What bothers me is that people are looking at it from a very different situation - one in which you are sitting comfortable in your office, typing on a computer because you have electricity, in no danger, have a place to live, food to eat, and a bed to sleep in, wondering why chaos has broken out to people that have none of that.

I don't excuse someone shooting at a rescue vehicle.
But people in panic mode do things they never thought that they would.

As I used in an example:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/iraq/hundreds-killed-in-baghdad-stampede/2005/09/01/1125302656200.html
"Most of the victims were women and children who drowned or were trampled."

These people were going to Mecca. Were you to ask someone who stepped on a child in panic if he would ever do such a thing, he would swear he wouldn't.

Even Peter, when he feared for his life, denied that he knew Jesus.

Panic and fear makes people do that opposite of what they think they would.

I simply wish that we would stop focussing on the few incidents of people who did something really stupid, like shoot at a rescue vehicle, and instead, focus on what we can do to help the victims.

Beanie, there's a difference between a crowd trampling someone in a blind panic while they flee a perceived threat and getting out a firearm, loading it, taking up position, and deliberately taking aim and firing at a rescue vehicle.

The first is a normal flight reaction--flee from danger. It's not even a totally voluntary reaction--people do that instinctively. Most people will run from an immediate threat. Shooting rescue vehicles is a voluntary decision to attempt to harm or kill others.

Like it or not, helping the victims is going to be severely hindered until the "snipers" are stopped.

 

[beanieboy]

Yikes!
Snipers.

Ok. Take em out.
This is beyond desparation.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WEATHER/09/01/katrina.hospital.sniper/index.html

I ask that everyone pray for these people.
"There are multiple people dying at the convention center," Lawrence said. "There was an old woman, dead in a wheelchair with a blanket draped over her, pushed up against a wall. Horrible, horrible conditions.

"We saw a man who went into a seizure, literally dying right in front of us."

In a statement Thursday, Nagin said that "the convention center is unsanitary and unsafe and we are running out of supplies for (15,000 to 20,000) people."

He said the city would allow people to march up the Crescent City Connection to the Westbank Expressway in an effort to find help.

People were "being forced to live like animals," Lawrence said, surrounded by piles of trash and feces.

He said thousands of people were just laying in the ground outside the building -- many old, or sick, or caring for infants and small children.

 

[Crow]

I know. It's pretty horrible.

People are doing quite a bit to try to help. I've tried to donate via the Salvation Army all day. 5 servers, and I still can't get through so it looks like I'm stopping at Wally World on the way home--they are collecting for the Salvation Army effort and have kicked some money in as well.

 

[GuySmiley]

I'm not expecting Walmart to do that, what with them paying poor people in China like 50 cents an hour or something, but I'd love for them to surprise me.

I don't expect them to either but I would if I were Sam Walton. I'm not sure if you thought I was being sarcastic or not, but I wasn't. I think Wal Mart should do that. It'd be good publicity besides being good humanitarians.

 

[beanieboy]

Any one know of any ways to help?

 

[BillyBob]

Yikes!
Snipers.

Ok. Take em out.
This is beyond desparation.

Exactly what I've been saying! These people have gone crazy!

My initial question was "why are they predominately 'black'?"

 

[Surr]

I know not everyone can do this, especially if you're not in the south, but:

www.Hurricane Housing.org

Hurricane Katrina has left hundreds of thousands of people homeless. But thousands of people throughout the region are stepping into the breach to offer free shelter to those in need.

 

[BillyBob]

I'm not expecting Walmart to do that, what with them paying poor people in China like 50 cents an hour or something, but I'd love for them to surprise me.

Take a look.


August 31, 2005

New Orleans Police Station Attacked As Looters Rampage
http://crime.about.com/b/a/198295.htm

The areas hit hardest by Hurricane Katrina are unfortunately also those hardest hit by looters while the police trying to stop them in New Orleans came under attack when two men with AK-47s opened fire on their police station.

Fox News reporter Jeff Goldblatt said two men with automatic weapons opened fire on a downtown New Orleans police station late Tuesday in an apparent retaliation against an officer who tried to stop looters earlier in the day from carting off clothes and jewelry from stores in the area.

As conditions deteriorated on the Gulf Coast, with no electricity, no water, and rising flood waters, looters were running wild in the streets, first looting grocery stores and later pharmacies, clothing and jewelry stores.

"It's downtown Baghdad," a tourist in downtown New Orleans said. "It's insane. I've wanted to come here for 10 years. I thought this was a sophisticated city. I guess not."

Mississippi Governor Haley Barbour said looting would not be tolerated in his state and that looters would be dealt with "ruthlessly," but with no electricity in the areas hardest hit and communication systems down, police and National Guard units were hampered in their efforts to stop the lawlessness.

A Matter of Survival

But some of the "looting" was a matter of survival. One report said a manager of a Wal-Mart opened the doors of his store and told residents to take anything they needed.

At a drug store near the French Quarter in New Orleans, two police officers with shotguns stood guard as workers from the Ritz-Carlton Hotel across the street loaded large laundry bins full of medications, snack foods and bottled water.

"This is for the sick," Officer Jeff Jacob said. "We can commandeer whatever we see fit, whatever is necessary to maintain law." Officer D.J. Butler told the crowd standing around that they would leave as soon as they got the necessities. "I'm not saying you're welcome to it," the officer said. "This is the situation we're in. We have to make the best of it."

 

[BillyBob]

I know not everyone can do this, especially if you're not in the south, but:

www.Hurricane Housing.org

I'd be willing to purchase a hotel room for a week for a refugee...

I'm not opening my house up to them, however.