Sozo said:
The Messiah has come. He's here, and Jesus is He. That's pretty much it. Since the death and resurrection had not happened, and Jesus told them not to preach it... also, they didn't understand Him when He spoke of it, anyway.
Just One Gospel?
- Thread starter Clete
- Start date
The Messiah has come. He's here, and Jesus is He. That's pretty much it. Since the death and resurrection had not happened, and Jesus told them not to preach it... also, they didn't understand Him when He spoke of it, anyway.
Sozo said:
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Jesus of Nazareth is our promised Messiah, who is here to reign over us on the throne of David, in fullfillment of the covenant which God made with David. But before we can enjoy the blessing of His reign, we must repent (as a nation and individually) and come back to the keeping of the law which was given through Moses."
(OK, so they probably did a much better job of it, but my guess is that it would be along those lines)
I'm brainstorming, more or less. Comments?
Well, I would think they didn't preach a need to return to the keeping of the law, but maybe a return to the actual law, instead of the additions that some had made to it.
Of course.
Sozo
New member
"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."swanca99 said:
Here we have one of the 12 (John) making a clear distinction between the Law and grace. Jesus was not bringing the Law for salvation, but grace and truth. Jesus used the Law to show them that they all fall short of the glory of God, but He did not point to the Law for salvation... He pointed to Himself.
""If I alone bear witness of Myself, My testimony is not true. "There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the testimony which He bears of Me is true. "You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. "But the witness which I receive is not from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. "He was the lamp that was burning and was shining and you were willing to rejoice for a while in his light. "But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. "And the Father who sent Me, He has borne witness of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. "And you do not have His word abiding in you, for you do not believe Him whom He sent. "You search the Scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is these that bear witness of Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me, that you may have life."
Jesus makes it clear that salvation is not in the Law, but in Him alone... in His life!
The scriptures declare that salvation is in Christ alone, and not in the Law. The Jews believed that they were saved because they kept the Law, and it was their trust in the Law that revealed their distrust of Christ.
"..."I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another shall come in his own name, you will receive him. "How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another, and you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only God? "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me."
The gospel that Paul proclaimed came from the very scriptures that the Jews used to claim that salvation is in the Law.
"And the brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea; and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures (OT) daily, to see whether these things were so."
"And when he (Apollos) wanted to go across to Achaia, the brethren encouraged him and wrote to the disciples to welcome him; and when he had arrived, he helped greatly those who had believed through grace; for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures (OT) that Jesus was the Christ."
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures (OT), and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (OT)"
"You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them; and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings (Scripture) (OT) which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture (OT) is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
"For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope."
The message of God is revealed to us in the holy Scriptures, and the New Testament gives us an account of the Word made flesh and the message of the gospel, that is contained in the Scriptures.
Romans 10: 17 literally is saying to us:
So faith comes by hearing the message concerning Christ.
The Scriptures are where Jesus, Paul and the others turned to confirm that Jesus was the fulfillment of all that the Scriptures spoke of concerning Christ. The New Testament is written to affirm, confirm, and convince us that the Scriptures point to Jesus as the Christ and the message concerning Christ.
I am not seeing the presentation of the gospel by the 12 as you guys claim it to be. I seriously doubt that Jesus would tell them to say something different, than what He is saying, or what John himself wrote.
Sozo,
Are you denying that following the law was a requirement for the Jews?
This seems like you are just trying to find something to object about. I really don't understand how this isn't being presented just as clear as crystal. It seems just as plain and simple as can be.
No one is suggesting that the law saved them, only that they were required to keep it once saved. They were saved because they put their faith in God. No one, save Jesus Himself, was ever able to follow the law perfectly and so the dispensation of the law was under girded by God's grace or else no one prior to Paul could ever have been saved at all. But that in no way changes the fact that the Jews in Jesus' day and before were REQUIRED under their dispensation, to follow the law to the best of their ability. The law did not save them, God's grace did that, but God decides under what conditions His grace will be applied. And during the dispensation of the law there was a two fold requirement, 1. Faith and 2. Good works (i.e. following the law).
See? Simple!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Are you denying that following the law was a requirement for the Jews?
This seems like you are just trying to find something to object about. I really don't understand how this isn't being presented just as clear as crystal. It seems just as plain and simple as can be.
No one is suggesting that the law saved them, only that they were required to keep it once saved. They were saved because they put their faith in God. No one, save Jesus Himself, was ever able to follow the law perfectly and so the dispensation of the law was under girded by God's grace or else no one prior to Paul could ever have been saved at all. But that in no way changes the fact that the Jews in Jesus' day and before were REQUIRED under their dispensation, to follow the law to the best of their ability. The law did not save them, God's grace did that, but God decides under what conditions His grace will be applied. And during the dispensation of the law there was a two fold requirement, 1. Faith and 2. Good works (i.e. following the law).
See? Simple!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Sozo
New member
Clete said:
No, why do you ask?
Why? How is the message of the gospel of the kingdom, a demand to keep the Law, when Jesus tells them not to trust in the Law, but in Him.
What does that mean?
The Law never had anything to do with anyone being saved, and salvation was accounted through the promise, but not realized until Christ was glorified. Salvation is the impartation of the life of God in those who have come to Him by faith, but those who came to Him by faith, before Christ was glorified, were not saved or righteous until the mystery was revealed, it was simply accounted to them.
Best of their ability? :noway: :doh:
"Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them."
That is simply not true. The statements made by James about Abraham are false. Abraham was not justified by works when he offered up his son on the altar. He was justified when he believed, or else the account in Genesis is false. Paul says that NO FLESH (that includes the Jews) are justified by the works of the Law.
"For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God."
What?!Sozo said:
Sozo, this single statement should be enough to send the red flags a waving all over the place in your own head!
James himself may have told a lie during his lifetime but to suggest that the book of James teaches a lie is to directly attribute a lie to God Himself! The Scriptures do not teach lies Sozo! If you think they do, you are mistaken and confused beyond reckoning!
You know, it would be really easy to formulate a theology that is in 100% agreement with the Biblical text if you were allowed to formulate the theology and then removed all the portions of scripture that teach something that contradicts it.
I'm disappointed in you greatly Sozo, I really thought you were above this sort of thing. What is the point of even continuing if you are only going to do a hatchet job an any portion of Scripture that disagrees with your position? Please tell me that I've misunderstood you somehow.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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Sozo
New member
Clete said:
First of all, you ignored all of my points.
Secondly, James is quoting someone else whose statements are false. I did not suggest that those are the ideas of James, but James is showing what the Jews were falsely proclaiming about Abraham's faith.
Did Peter, James, John, and the others of the 12, believe Paul or not?
There is no reason to continue to share a message with people that will not save them.
Sozo said:
Just to clarify...the gospel of the kingdom had nothing to do with salvation. It had to do with bringing in the earthly reign of Israel's Messiah.
As to how the 12 would have preached the gospel of salvation before the death and resurrection of Jesus, I'm not sure how that would have gone...do the Scriptures say anything about that?
I didn't ignore them, there was just no point in responding if you ae going to through out whole sections of Scripture to suit your theology, which it appeared you were doing.Sozo said:
Can you establish this? I doubt that you can. The book of James is pretty straight forward.
Asked and answered. They acknoweldged the validity of his message but were not saved by it, they had already been saved before the gospel of the grace of God had been revealed to Paul.
I didn't say they did. They continued to minister to those who had been coverted under them that is all. They did not continue fulfulling the great commission as they were commanded by Christ to do, they stayed and ministered to the Circumcision as they agreed to do (Gal. 2:9)
Resting in Him,
Clete
Because you say things like...Sozo said:
I ask you again, Are you suggesting that obedience to the law was optional for the believing Jew of Jesus' day and before?
The clear teaching of Scripture is that if a Jew refused to obey the law, he would be cut off; that if they put their hand to the plow and then looked back, they were not worthy of the kingdom. There can be no question that ones relationship with God hinged on both faith (which itself was part of the law) and good works, not simply one or the other. Now, we are saved by grace plus nothing through faith plus nothing in Christ plus nothing. This simply could not be truthfully stated prior to the apostle Paul's ministry, otherwise Paul lied.
This is not in dispute.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Sold Out said:
You're just flatly wrong. The theme of the entire book of James is salvation, not sanctification or anything else.
The question he wrote the book to answer was, "What sort of faith saves you?"
Your comment is typical however of those who do not see the distinctive nature of Paul's ministry. They always attempt to make Paul and James say the same thing when they clearly where not. I prefer to acknowledge Paul distinctive message just as the twelve acknowledged it and thereby be able to take both Paul and James at face value.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Sozo
New member
Sold Out said:
Ummm... no I am not.
James says... "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?"
The answer to that question is... ABOSOLUTELY NOT!
Paul says... "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
It matters not who was preaching what "gospel" to whom, the comments about Abraham stand on their own merit. A different audience does not change the truth about justification.
Genesis 15:4-6
"Then behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This man will not be your heir; but one who shall come forth from your own body, he shall be your heir." And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness."