Just One Gospel?

[swanca99]

"How is the message of the gospel of the kingdom, a demand to keep the Law, when Jesus tells them not to trust in the Law, but in Him?"

See my response to "What does the Law have to do with the gospel of the kingdom" above. Keeping the Law was not for individual salvation.

"Did Peter, James, John, and the others of the 12, believe Paul or not?"

Yes, they did.

If you have questions about my answers, feel free to ask and I'll try to answer.

 

[Sold Out]

Abraham was an exceptional case.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Uh-oh Clete....God does not make exceptions for ANYONE: Acts10:34 " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons":

Romans 2:11, "For there is no respect of persons with God."

When someone says that God makes exceptions, then that person is trying to manipulate the word of God to fit their teaching.

The bible is harmonious and does not contradict. Paul and James were not contradicting each other. If you read James 2:1, he begins with 'my brethren....'. Who was he talking to? CHRISTIANS! That is how we know he is referring to SERVING faith, not SAVING faith. That is why Paul and James do not contradict.

 

[drbrumley]

The bible is harmonious and does not contradict. Paul and James were not contradicting each other. If you read James 2:1, he begins with 'my brethren....'. Who was he talking to? CHRISTIANS! That is how we know he is referring to SERVING faith, not SAVING faith. That is why Paul and James do not contradict.

And I guess your attempting to say we, which is the Body Of Christ, must be Isreal? You mention James 2:1 and the use of "my brethren." I submit you are off your rocker. Now unless your saying we are Isreal as I mentioned above, which in blatantly wrong, then the words of James defeats your whole argument. And what verse is this? Look below.

James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,


To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:

We are NOT the twelve tribes. So please deposit $.25 and try again.

So it is established fact thru Gods word that James was writing to the twelve tribes. There can be no dispute.

 

[Clete]

Uh-oh Clete....God does not make exceptions for ANYONE: Acts10:34 " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons":

Romans 2:11, "For there is no respect of persons with God."

When someone says that God makes exceptions, then that person is trying to manipulate the word of God to fit their teaching.

Fellowship week or not, this statement is idiotic. I didn't say God made an exception I said that Abraham was an exceptional case, as in out of the ordinary. How many other people in the whole history of the world are representative of both the nation of Israel and the Body of Christ? How many Sold Out? Is it 50? 5000? maybe 1,000,000? Oh! wait a minute! It's ONE isn't it? One single guy in the whole history of mankind and you don't think that makes him an exceptional case. Whatever! :kookoo:

The bible is harmonious and does not contradict. Paul and James were not contradicting each other. If you read James 2:1, he begins with 'my brethren....'. Who was he talking to? CHRISTIANS! That is how we know he is referring to SERVING faith, not SAVING faith. That is why Paul and James do not contradict.

James was talking to Chrstian JEWS (i.e. MEssianic Jews or Jewish believers whatever you want to call them) of the dispersion and there are only two ways to keep Paul and James from contradicting one anyother. Either one of them was saying something other than what it seems by a simply reading of the text, or they were talking to two different audiences. I prefer to keep the plain meaning of the text in tact and acknowledge the obvious fact that they were speaking to two different groups of people.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Uh-oh Clete....God does not make exceptions for ANYONE: Acts10:34 " Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons":

Romans 2:11, "For there is no respect of persons with God."

When someone says that God makes exceptions, then that person is trying to manipulate the word of God to fit their teaching.

So will God throw both the righteous and the wicked in hell? Or will God be a respecter of persons? Romans 2 is saying that God is no respecter of persons with regards to being judged by the law. But actually, Paul goes on to say that Christians will not be judged by the law! Paul is establishing a default principle of being condemned by the law, before bringing up the exceptions.

In Acts 10:34, Peter says that now God is not a respecter of persons with regard to salvation. However that doesn’t mean that the law never existed, or wasn’t from God. God, in the Old Testament law, stated that Jews should not be present in the homes of Gentiles, and that God told the Jews not to marry the Gentiles. It is a little far fetched to claim that God wasn't a respecter of persons with regards to certain respects, in the Law.

When someone is woodenly literal with these passages, or they try to remove them from direct context and give them an overriding meaning beyond what is specifically spoken of, then that person is trying to manipulate the word of God to fit their teaching, not someone who is showing God has made exceptions.

 

[Lighthouse]

What "gospel" were the 12 preaching here...

"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16. "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. 17. "And these signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18. they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly [poison], it shall not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover." 19. So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God. 20. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed"

Does baptism save? Jesus said it does, in the quote above. But things changed, when the Jews rejected Christ, and salvation was sent to the Gentiles, apart from the law. It was then that the law was removed from the equation. The law never saved, I agree. But the Jews were required to keep it, to show themselves set apart from teh world. And the 12 preached the law, as a means to show their separation.

 

[Clete]

Whether the law saved or not, it was definitely part of the gospel message that Jesus and the twelve and all the prophets, etc. preached prior to the current gospel message which was given to Paul for us by revelation.
You know the whole point that it was undoubtedly given to Paul by revelation of God should be enough to end this debate. What would have been the point of divinely revealing something that was already being preached? Saul had already heard the twelve preach and had rejected their message to the point of trying to kill them for crying out loud! I've asked it before and I ask it again, if the gospel hasn't changed since Jesus' ministry, why Paul? I do not believe that this question can be answered satisfactorily. Either Paul was preaching something legitimately new or else he was a fraud.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Sozo, I'll get to your questions later today if at all possible.

 

[Sold Out]

Whether the law saved or not, it was definitely part of the gospel message that Jesus and the twelve and all the prophets, etc. preached prior to the current gospel message which was given to Paul for us by revelation.
You know the whole point that it was undoubtedly given to Paul by revelation of God should be enough to end this debate. What would have been the point of divinely revealing something that was already being preached? Saul had already heard the twelve preach and had rejected their message to the point of trying to kill them for crying out loud! I've asked it before and I ask it again, if the gospel hasn't changed since Jesus' ministry, why Paul? I do not believe that this question can be answered satisfactorily. Either Paul was preaching something legitimately new or else he was a fraud.
.

Clete - what you can't seem to get past is that there has only been one thing EVER that has saved ANYONE and that is the blood of Christ. Since that is true, there is only one gospel - the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION of Christ. Luke 18:31-33 says, "Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

 

[Turbo]

Clete - what you can't seem to get past is that there has only been one thing EVER that has saved ANYONE and that is the blood of Christ.

No one has said otherwise.

Since that is true, there is only one gospel - the DEATH, BURIAL and RESURRECTION of Christ. Luke 18:31-33 says, "Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, “We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again.”

And the very next verse says:

But they understood none of these things; this saying was hidden from them, and they did not know the things which were spoken. Luke 18:34​

Keep in mind that this was after the twelve, at Jesus' command, had been "preaching the gospel." (Luke 9:6)

But later in Luke 9, when Jesus told the twelve for the first time that he would be killed and resurrected, Jesus told them to tell no one.

And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." Luke 9:21-22​

(When Matthew and Mark wrote about this event, they specifically mention that Peter didn't even believe what Jesus said about being killed. see Matthew 16:22-23 & Mark 8:32-33)

Sold Out,

• If Jesus had already sent the twelve to preach that He would be killed and raised, why did He later tell them to keep that information to themselves?
• Why did Peter and the twelve have such a hard time accepting that information if they had already been preaching it throughout Israel?

 

[Clete]

Turbo,

Outstanding post! You took the words right out of my mouth! It's like we're the same person or something!

 

[Clete]

I started by asking these questions...

What kinds of things do you think that the disciples were saying when they preached the gospel of the kingdom?

I'm sure they said things very similar to, if not exactly like, what Jesus said in Matthew 5-7.

I'm simply wanting to understand what the disciples mindset was concerning the gospel of the kingdom. What did they think was the outcome of those who received their message?

Well, salvation of course, but more than that, a relationship with God as well. This might seem to be the same as today and it is to a certain degree but the nature of our relationship is dramatically different today than it would have been prior to Paul's gospel, thus the change in the Gospel itself. Israel had a corporate relationship with God as members of a nation with laws and a hierarchy of authority and a political structure etc.. We, on the other hand are personally (individually) identified in Jesus Christ Himself and are members of a body, the Body of Christ which is not political nor does it have an authority structure where any one member rules over another.

Did they preach eternal life?

Of course!

Did they preach salvation by faith?

Certainly!

What did they believe that the Kingdom entailed?

A nation, on earth with laws and a King who ruled with a rod of iron and enforced justice and vanquished those who would have/had oppressed the members of that nation. They expected that Jesus would become that King and in fact after the Holy Spirit had been given they preached this very thing.

• Acts 3:17 Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before,21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, "The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.'24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold[c] these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, "And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.'26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities."

What is the gospel of the Kingdom?

Israel had been promised a kingdom, an earthly one. A kingdom through which God intended to evangelize the entire world and thereby bring salvation to all those who would believe.

How were those individuals saved? What evidence did they have that they were saved?

How is that no one is justified by the Law, and yet the 12 are preaching salvation through the Law?

The law was only part of the gospel. Faith in God was really what saved because no one could ever follow the law sufficiently to be saved. But be that as it may, the law was an integral part of the gospel message.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

What does the Law have to do with the gospel of the kingdom?

Practically everything!
How can you have a nation without laws?

How is the message of the gospel of the kingdom, a demand to keep the Law, when Jesus tells them not to trust in the Law, but in Him?

To suggest that Jesus did not teach to follow the law is simply ridiculous. Do a search on words like 'Moses', 'law', 'ordinance' and see how many times such terms are used in the gospels, then do a similar search on 'grace', the difference with be staggering.
In fact Jesus said directly that ALL the law should be followed...

• Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
• Matthew 5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
• Luke 16:17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail.

Did Peter, James, John, and the others of the 12, believe Paul or not?

Of course they did, but they were not saved by having believed it! They had already been saved, long before. They had already been indwelt by the Holy Spirit and had already been preaching for at least a year before Saul was converted in Acts 9.
The whole fact that there was such a thing as "Paul's message" is proof that things had changed. If the twelve preached the same gospel as Paul, how does it make sense to even ask the question "Did Peter, James, John, and the others of the 12, believe Paul or not?"?

I have NEVER received answers, that make a lick of sense, to these questions.

Well, actually you have, you just don't seem to be able to see it. It would help I think to point out that the gospel (in any dispensation) has to do with more than simply salvation. It has to do with the whole of God's dealings with mankind which of course includes salvation but is by no means limited to it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Lighthouse]

Excellent points, Clete and Turbo.:thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

Excellent points, Clete and Turbo.:thumb:

Acts 2:17 *And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 *And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 *And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 *The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 *And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
22 *Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs,
23 *Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 *Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 *For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 *Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
Acts 2:26 *Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 *Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 *Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
29 *Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 *Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 *He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 *This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 *Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 *For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 *Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 *Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 *For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

The gospel that the apostles preached. What has changed?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The gospel that the apostles preached. What has changed?

elected4ever,

Did you notice that the "gospel" that was preached on the day of Pentecost mentioned nothing about the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross?

That is what has changed.

Today,the Christian hasbeen given the "ministry of reconciliation" to preach the "word of reconciliation"(2Cor.5:18,19).

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life"(Ro.5:10).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight"*Col.1:20-22).

It was not until Paul was converted that anyone was given the ministry of reconciliation to preach the word of reconciliation.And it is impossible to preach that word without mentioning the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus.That is why no one before Paul said anything at all about that "purpose" until Paul.

The message that was preached to the Jews beginning with John the Baptist and continuing through the Acts period was centered on the fact that it is the Lord Jesus Who is the promised Messiah of Israel.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[Sold Out]

Sold Out,

• If Jesus had already sent the twelve to preach that He would be killed and raised, why did He later tell them to keep that information to themselves?
• Why did Peter and the twelve have such a hard time accepting that information if they had already been preaching it throughout Israel?

Why does ANYONE have a problem understanding, because a lot of people do. Since ages past, the fact that God would become a man, live on the earth, die and rise again has been a very difficult concept for a lot of people. The disciples were no exception.

What the disciples were preaching was that the promised OT Messiah had finally come. What were the prophecies concerning the OT Messiah? That he would be scorned, rejected by his own people, subsequently die, and then rise again. The OT scriptures plainly stated what the Messiah would do and why.

 

[elected4ever]

elected4ever,

Did you notice that the "gospel" that was preached on the day of Pentecost mentioned nothing about the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross?

That is what has changed.

Today,the Christian hasbeen given the "ministry of reconciliation" to preach the "word of reconciliation"(2Cor.5:18,19).

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life"(Ro.5:10).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight"*Col.1:20-22).

It was not until Paul was converted that anyone was given the ministry of reconciliation to preach the word of reconciliation.And it is impossible to preach that word without mentioning the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus.That is why no one before Paul said anything at all about that "purpose" until Paul.

The message that was preached to the Jews beginning with John the Baptist and continuing through the Acts period was centered on the fact that it is the Lord Jesus Who is the promised Messiah of Israel.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

The only thing different is that now the gentiles received the Gospel of the Kingdom by virtue of Israel's rejection. This was a mystery to Israel but not unknowable. The like of understanding by Israel does not equal a different gospel. A mystery explained does not equal a new gospel. :juggle:

 

[drbrumley]

The only thing different is that now the gentiles received the Gospel of the Kingdom by virtue of Israel's rejection. This was a mystery to Israel but not unknowable. The like of understanding by Israel does not equal a different gospel. A mystery explained does not equal a new gospel. :juggle:

Not unknowable????
:darwinsm: Is that a joke???????

 

[Clete]

Why does ANYONE have a problem understanding, because a lot of people do. Since ages past, the fact that God would become a man, live on the earth, die and rise again has been a very difficult concept for a lot of people. The disciples were no exception.

What the disciples were preaching was that the promised OT Messiah had finally come. What were the prophecies concerning the OT Messiah? That he would be scorned, rejected by his own people, subsequently die, and then rise again. The OT scriptures plainly stated what the Messiah would do and why.

Did you forget about Matthew 16?

• Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, "Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?"
  
  14 So they said, "Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
  
  15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
  
  16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
  
  17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed[d] in heaven."
  
  20 Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

Doesn't this directly contradict what you just said?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The only thing different is that now the gentiles received the Gospel of the Kingdom by virtue of Israel's rejection.

elected4ever,

You just ignored what I said,but that does not surprise me.What is different is the fact that on the day of Pentecost the Apostles spoke nothing about the purpose of His death upon the Cross.They were not preaching the same "word of reconciliation" that has been commited to believers under the present dispensation.

Today we are given the ministry of reconciliation to preach the word of reconciliation,and that word cannot be preached apart from the proclamation concerning the "purpose" of that death.

On the day of Pentecost there was no mention whatsoever concerning the "purpose" of His death.

If you want to close your ears and eyes to the truth,then that is your business.But that does not change the fact that the gospel message which was preached on the day of Pentecost was not the same gospel that was revealed to Paul and not made known until Paul was converted.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

 

[elected4ever]

Not unknowable????
:darwinsm: Is that a joke???????

John 3:6 *That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 *Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 *The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 *Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10 *Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 *Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 *If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13 *And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus said that Nicodemus should have known. Meaning that it was knowable.

John 5:37 *And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 *And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39 *Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.[/b]
40 *And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41 *I receive not honour from men.
42 *But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43 *I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44 *How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

If it is not known then there is a reason for not knowing. That cannot be that they were not told.