Just One Gospel?

[Apollos]

The who/what/where/when/& how of the ONE true gospel...

The who/what/where/when/& how of the ONE true gospel...

Jerry –
In my last reply (post # 365) I attributed R. Anderson’s flawed arguments to Eldersheim. Anderson is certainly wrong and this includes the pitiful applications he made of Christ’s death in reference to the Passover, sin offerings, and the scapegoat.

Also, I had been showing you where Paul said the gospel had been preached to Abraham as in Galatians 3:8 – “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all the nations be blessed.” ASV You replied…

Gal.3:8 does not say that the OT Scriptures "revealed" that the Gentiles would be saved by faith.

Quibble over semantics if you want, but Paul says it DOES!
Paul says that the “gospel” (the good tidings of man’s salvation) was preached to Abraham by “the scripture”.
Paul says “the scripture” said ALL nations were going to be saved through the linage of Abraham.
Paul also says that “the scripture” that “foresaw” this salvation, also PREACHED that gospel to Abraham – Paul used Genesis 12:3 as “the scripture” in this example. We did not have to wait for Paul to announce the Gentiles would be saved by faith – that announcement came 1500 years before Christ.

Perhaps you will tell me HOW “the scriptures” can “foresee” something (or “look forward” to something as the NLT rendered it) if “the scriptures” were not “preaching” about that which was to come? …such as the justification of the Gentiles BY FAITH.

Jerry, you have had TWO chances now to explain to us what Paul meant when he wrote – “…foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith…”. Why have you not told us what Paul meant here? Hmmm???

Now Jerr, isn’t this what YOU teach – that the Gentiles are justified by faith? If so, stop your baloney mill of trying to tell me or anyone else that the gospel YOU teach was not preached before Paul showed up. Paul tells us plainly here in Galatians 3:8 that the gospel of justification by faith was known from the time of Abraham! The scriptures preached it and foresaw it! Whether or not anyone understood this at the time does not change the facts!

This truth was not revealed until Paul made it known:

"But now the righteousness of God without law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe"(Ro.3:21,22).

Two points:
1.) “But now…” refers to a period of time, not a specificpoint in time when God’s righteousness was being manifested to man. Hopefully you are not foolish enough to think that “but now” refers to that specific point in time.

2.) Romans 3:21-22 tells us that the “righteousness of God without the law” that was being manifested at that time, “even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith in Jesus Christ” is WITNESSED by the law and the prophets…”

OH MY! Paul tells us that the “law and the prophets” are WITNESSES (ei. give testimony) of the righteousness that was “now” being manifested. All you have to do is EXPLAIN how it is possible for the OT to “witness” about that which it never (as you claim) spoke about!

Of course I understand what Paul meant when he used the word "mystery".It means something that was kept secret but is now made known…

As I said, you do not know HOW Paul uses this word - you don’t know what was hidden, and more importantly, you do not know what had already been revealed in reference to the mystery. You want to claim that ALL of God’s plan of salvation since from the beginning of time for all men was hidden until Paul arrived – it wasn’t. Let’s take a quick look:

-Who – God/Christ
-What – Gospel/Salvation
-Where – Earth/Calvary
-How – Death/Crucifixion
-When – Fulness of time.

As I have previously shown (irrefutable by you) the OT prophets knew salvation was coming and that God’s Christ would suffer – 1 Peter 1:10-12. What the prophets did not know was in what manner (how) and at what time (when) these events would take place. The prophets “enquired and searched diligently” to know, but this was “hidden” from them - this being God’s hidden wisdom, the “mystery”, see 1 Cor.2:6-7.

The “GOSPEL” is the glad tidings that God was/is going to save “all nations”. What Abraham and the OT prophets did not know was WHEN this would come about and HOW that salvation would be secured for them. This when and how is the “mystery”, the part of God’s wisdom hidden from man. The “gospel” was heralded from OT times.

And whether the prophets, His disciples, or anyone else understood or understands God’s plan of salvation, such does not change His plan, alter its revelation, or negate one fact – it makes no difference in its establishment, its fruition, and its realization!

The purpose of His death could only be found in the "types".But that does not mean that anyone understood those types.

This is a broad and sweeping remark that is not only wrong, you can not prove it.

Known beforehand that Christ would die for our sins "according to the Scriptures"?
The verse that follows [1 Cor. 15:4] proves that the words "according to the Scriptures" is in regard to "types" and not in regard to an open revelation:

To refresh… 1 Cor. 15:3-4 – “For I delivered unto you first of all that which also I received: that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures….

Paul tells us -4- things in these two passages – 1) Christ died for our sins. 2)He was buried. 3) He arose the 3rd day. 4) These things happened ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES !

It is your assertion and nothing more, that verse 4 “proves” this is speaking in regards to “types”. Please tell us HOW SO?? There is not one thing in these 2 verses that suggests “types” are being discussed. This is but another prime example of your trying to jam something into a verse that is not there. The problem is you do not believe what Paul has to say here. You don’t believe NT scriptures so why would you believe OT scriptures if I produced them by the hundreds?
<<<*>>>

Galatians 2:7-8 – “They saw that God had given me the responsibility of preaching the Good News to the Gentiles, just as he had given Peter the responsibility of preaching to the Jews. 8 For the same God who worked through Peter for the benefit of the Jews worked through me for the benefit of the Gentiles.” - NLT

 

[ApologeticJedi]

Also, I had been showing you where Paul said the gospel had been preached to Abraham as in Galatians 3:8 – “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand unto Abraham, [saying,] In thee shall all the nations be blessed.” ASV You replied…

Apollos,

Whenever someone lifts a passage from it’s immediate context there is a danger of misunderstanding the argument being said, even as you have done. Galatians 3:8 is teaching that God had always planned to reach the Gentiles via Abraham, and had provided a means to do so when Abraham was justified by faith.

This did not, however, mean that this was common knowledge nor does it hinge on the idea that Abraham understood it’s entirety. Paul is not revoking his own statements that this was a “mystery” not revealed until Paul’s day.

Colosians 1:25-17: to which I become a minister according to the dispensation from God which was given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God, the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations past, but now has been revealed to His saints.​

Of course this is a fulfillment of God’s word, however it was “hidden” in God’s word. It was preached to Arbaham for certain, but hidden in such a way that only the necessary knowledge was obvious. When Paul came the mystery was revealed.

Ephesians 3:1-5: For this reason I , Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles – if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, by which when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel.​

Clearly, Paul stresses this was not an idea widely known – or known at all. It was a mystery until him. These are Paul’s own words. Indeed, despite your boast of “hundreds” of passages, there is not a single passage in the entire Old Testament of a direct statement that Gentiles would be one day saved apart from the law.

When Jesus told his own apostles not to tell people that He would die on the cross, and then simultaneously sent them out to preach the gospel, he sent them on a mission, impossible today. For today it is impossible to tell the gospel message without mentioning Jesus’ death on the cross. Certainly the gospel today would not be complete without that concept. In Jesus’ time, the idea that he would die on the cross was irrelevant to the gospel Jesus sent them to preach.

Is there only one gospel? Obviously not.

 

[Adrial]

Clete - The animal sacrifices were only a picture of what saves. The acts themselves did not save. When Jesus came in the flesh, there was no need to proclaim the gospel via the sacrifices because the ACTUAL sacrifice had finally showed up! Either way, you had to put faith in the picture that the sacrifice represented (Christ) or the actual sacrifice (Jesus' death, burial and resurrection), which is what we do now in the church age.

Question for you: In Genesis 4, Cain and Abel offered sacrifices to God. How did they know about sacrifices? They lived centuries before the law was given to Moses.

Possibly they knew about sacrifices, because of Gen 3:21. God made coats from skins thus suggesting he slaughtered an animal. He clothed them. covered their nakedness, perhaps this was the first sin offering? Also when cain and abel bring their offerings they bring them to the door of the garden of eden. "sin lieth at the door" This is referring to the "sin offering" brought by abel. In other words God is telling cain that the sin offering abel brought was good enough for both of them. Abel was his brothers keeper!
just a tidbit to chew on, thanks Adrial

 

[Adrial]

wow Ive just spent alot of time catching up on this thread. This is one of the most important discussions on these boards. I have found, believers who don't understand how to rightly divide,are clueless and confused.

I was the same for many years until I began to understand just what was going on, especially the DIFFERENCES between the kingdom gospel of the 12 and what Paul taught POST Acts. Remember Paul wrote 14 epistles 7 during the timeperiod of the Acts and 7 post Acts. Paul's message post Acts, was never believed then (all those in Asia are turned away) and it is not believed now. It is remarkable to me his epistles even made it into the cannon, as by the time the NT cannon was officially assembled, NO ONE understood Paul's message.
I will give some differences between Paul's earlier epistles and his post Acts epitles.
1. in romans we find to the "Jew first"- in the prison epistles we find there is no longer any Jewish elevated position
2.Paul is a prisoner for Isral's hope in Acts 28 but beyond his declaration in Acts 28:28 he is now a prisoner for the gentiles (or nations)
3.miraculous gifts and signs are commonplace during the time of the Acts--post Acts Paul had no power to heal even his beloved Epaphroditus
4.during the timeperiod of the Acts the law was still in effect and kept by Paul and the 12---post Acts law is abolished and of none effect. After all how could anyone obey the law completely without the TEMPLE? (destroyed AD 70) Paul shows how all believers are complete in Christ
5.During the time of the Acts we find a message based on the whole counsel of God ---post Acts Paul writes in connection with the eternal purpose these are two different things check it out
6. here are some other things to compare "from the foundation"---"before the foundation" these two things differ
7. Paul preached in Acts 20 "he had not shunned to declare unto them the whole counsel of God and was thus free from the blood of all men-----we cannot include the eternal purpose in this whole counsel as it had not yet been revealed!

Remember the teachings given to Paul were by the ascended and seated Christ from far above all, and were vastly different from what Jesus taught while here on earth. The Epistles written during the Acts time have ISRAEL'S NATIONAL status in view, in relation to the kingdom message. Christ enlightens his disciples out of Moses and the prophets and Paul continues this and does not deviate from it until "the salvation bringing message of God is sent to the gentiles and they will hear it" Acts 28:28. The Epistles Paul pens after Acts never mention the whole counsel of God, rather they focus on the hidden eternal purpose. Clearly Moses and the prophets and the 12 for that matter, knew nothing of what Paul revelates in the prison Epistles. Paul's message of salvation OUTSIDE of the INSTRUMENTALITY of Israel was UNHEARD of and never even considered by the Jewish Nation. Remember Cornelius (acts 10)? Peter had to be given a vision to even go to a gentiles home and even once he's there, he's still confused as to why!
Paul's message differed in so many ways, i have only touched on some of them. I pray all believers today could understand. Seeing the differences and rightly dividing have shed so much light on the Word of God for me personally. I wouldn't underestimate the benefits of a little Bible study!
Finding joy through the light of His Word, Adrial