So true, BR.
Jesus also never said He was Savior, or King, or Redeemer, or sacrificial Lamb, etc.
But one can sure connect the dots when they read the whole of scripture.
Jesus is God
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Jesus also never said He was Savior, or King, or Redeemer, or sacrificial Lamb, etc.
But one can sure connect the dots when they read the whole of scripture.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Matthew 13:14-15
I agree with RD on this.
No-nonsense posts like yours are getting harder and harder to find on TOL.
Well, I haven't read every post on this thread but the several I have read seem to show the opposite of your claim to intellectual honesty and a willingness to change your mind in response to clear and unambiguous contrary evidence. You've failed to do so once already and resorted to condescension and stupidity rather than anything honest or even rationally coherent. My prediction is that you'll do so again. Let's put it to the test.
What's clear is that for anyone to think that the bible teaches anything other than that Jesus is the incarnation of the Creator, one must bring that conclusion to the reading of scripture in an a-priori fashion. I've already quoted Jesus directly claiming to be God, others have quoted Thomas calling Jesus "my Lord and my God" and in fact it wouldn't be wrong to say that the whole theme of John's gospel is the presentation of Jesus Christ as God in the flesh. John then wrote another book a few decades later that totally ends any question that the particularly thick headed might have on the issue in which he quotes Jesus saying the following...
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Revelation 7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
21: 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
`8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
21: 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Now, I, for one, know how to read and these passages cannot be understood in any other way! If the bible does not teach that Jesus is God then it doesn't teach anything whatsoever! If passages that are this clear and unambiguous cannot be understood to mean what they say then the bible cannot be understood at all!
Not only that but if Jesus isn't God Himself then His death would not have been sufficient to pay the sin debt of the whole world and the entire gospel itself is destroyed and the whole theological construct of Christianity falls into dust.
NWL
Active member
You can put me to the test, and I will put you to the test, my only request is that you too be honest in light of the basic reading and truth of scripture.
Jesus is not the alpha and omega in Rev 1:8, this is clear by reading the context of Revelation 1 as I will demonstrate. Notice, the "one who is and who was and who is coming" is the same person as "the Almighty" as seen in Rev 1:8
(Rec 1:8) "..I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.."
Now notice how Rev 1:4-5 mentions the "one who is and who was and who is coming" along with other persons below.
(Rev 1:4-5) "..May you have undeserved kindness and peace from “the One who is and who was and who is coming,”AND from the seven spirits that are before his throne, 5 AND from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead.."
Jesus is clearly a separate person from the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:4-5, thus, Jesus is not the "one who is and who was and who is coming" in Rev 1:8, this is irrefutable and plain as day.
You stated "Now, I, for one, know how to read and these passages cannot be understood in any other way!", I have shown you a different way to understand the passage which is contextually honest and destroys the assumed argument that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (A&O), nowhere does the text ever say Jesus is the alpha and omega. You also stated "intellectual honesty" in regards to myself, I deny such an attribute and pray that you are not who is actually intellectual honesty when I ask the following question.
Why does the apostle [John] show that Jesus is separate from the "one who is, was and is coming", namely the A&O, if he is the "one who is, was and is coming" in v4,5?
I do not deny that Jesus is a God/god, it is clear from the bible he is, I, however, deny that he is the one God of the scripture, who is so clearly shown to be the Father and the Father alone.
(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) "...Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him..."
The trinity doctrine teaches there is only one God, v4 in the above stated there is no God but one, v6 goes on to show that the one God is the Father, not the F/S/HS but simply the Father. 1 Cor 8:4-6 is irrefutable in showing the true identity of the one God.
I await your reply.
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"God" is ambiguous, it can refer to a singular being or to a plurality of beings.
So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And God spake all these words, saying,
I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exodus 19:25-20:2, KJV
So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.
And Elohim[plural] spake all these words, saying,
I am YHWH thy Elah[singular], which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
I read posts like this and I just am flabbergasted that anyone's brain can be this broken! And I am not kidding or saying that for effect or to be insulting. It is literally as if this fool's brain has a spring that has gone "boing" and fouled up the whole works between his ears.
I mean how am I supposed to respond to an argument that quotes passages as evidence for his position that actually prove his own position wrong and do so as plain as day for anyone who can read the English language but doesn't have some pet doctrine that has created a mental disorder?
Here's his basic argument...
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"You, Clete, have presented an argument where the Apostle John writes the title "The Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last" in reference to both Jesus Christ and to God.
To refute it, I'm going to quote yet another passage where the title is used to reference God as proof that Jesus isn't God."
In short this post is "In order to prove my position right, here's more proof that I couldn't possibly be right! So there!" - Utter insanity!
Notice that there was not a word in this post about Jesus stating bluntly that, "I am the Root...of David"!
Not only that, but you have to ignore the whole rest of Revelation 1 to give this stupidity one second of serious consideration!
Jesus comes to John and the first thing He says is "“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (verse 8) and, ““I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,”(Verse 11). We aren't just guessing that this was Jesus speaking, we are told explicitly that it was Jesus speaking just two sentences later!
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death."
Then, again in chapter 2 we read...
‘These things saysthe First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life" (verse 8)
There isn't any doubt that it's Jesus doing the talking in these letters to the seven churches! No doubt whatsoever! It's just a flat out lie to even suggest otherwise.
What is there here to even debate?! There can be no debate! It would be the equivalent of debating whether the King James bible was written in English. Worse than that, it would be like debating whether the English language conveyes any meaning from those who speak it to those who hear it spoken. You might as well debate the existence of color in the presence of a rainbow or the existence of sound with a man who's yelling at you. It's an exercise in futility and raw stupidity.
Clete
This isn't the first occurrence of this in scripture. Moses began Genesis with the exact same sort of thing.
Genesis 1: In the beginning God (Elohim - plural) created (singular verb) the Heavens and the Earth.
In effect, Moses wrote, "In the beginning Gods, He created the Heavens and the Earth.
And this is in even the oldest of manuscript and so it no mistake or addition or anything like that. Moses either stated the very first sentence of his most important book with an error of grammar or he intentionally was conveying the idea that there is some kind of plurality within the singular God.
NWL
Active member
Intellectual dishonesty, remember those words at all Clete, it was you who said them, and yet here you are using ad hominem against me. lol. Notice you, like many others, do not and cannot deal with the question(s) I pose, instead of dealing with the clear contradiction I showed with what the bible says and what you believe, you go further and try and prove Jesus is the A&O again.
Again, answer my question, John clearly identifies Jesus as separate from the "one who is, was and is coming", this is clear when v4 says blessings "from the A&O, and from the seven spirits before his throne, and from Jesus". It does not matter if you have more evidence that Jesus is the A&O, I understood your position when you wrote your first post to me, further defining your understanding to me doesn't explain the clear contradiction I've shown.
Deal with my question! You are no better than the others.
1) Why does the apostle [John] show that Jesus is separate from the "one who is, was and is coming" in v4,5, namely the A&O, if he is the "one who is, was and is coming" in v8?
I said nothing about this point because what does it prove? I believe Jesus is the Root of David, this doesn't prove he's the trinity, the one God or the A&O. Since it neither adds nor takes away from my point I did not speak about it. If you somehow think it bolsters your position however, please let me know how it does and I will give a reply. Has it got to do with Jesus saying "I Jesus" in Rev 22:16 when viewing the preceding verses? If so explain what your point is.
Asserting something is true doesn't make it true my friend. Just because you assert "There isn't any doubt that it's Jesus doing the talking in these letters to the seven churches! No doubt whatsoever" doesn't make it true, the bible gives a different viewpoint when discussing who was doing the talking in Revelation (see below).
"...A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is the one who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy and who observe the things written in it, for the appointed time is near..." (Revelation 1:1-20)
Who gave Jesus the revelation? God the Father! Therefore it is God speaking through Jesus who speaks through an Angel to John, this is literally what the text says, these are NOT my words but literally the bibles. Thus, for you to claim "Jesus doing the talking in these letters to the seven churches!" goes contrary to the Bible, since it is God talking through Jesus, through an Angel, through John, to us.
You use Rev 1:11 which is foolish, to try and make a point on a debated verse is truly unwise. Virtually all of the oldest manuscripts do not contain what is stated in Rev 1:11 (mention of A&O and F&L combined), therefore to use it in a debate is pointless and bad form (let me guess, you're a KJ advocate).
Since Rev 1:4,5 clearly has Jesus as separate from the "one who is, who was, and who is coming" it is clear Rev 1:11 and the rendition you gave is spurious as it contradicts Jesus separation from the A&O, a fact you have not acknowledged yet.
No, the first thing Jesus says is not "I am the A&O", the angel is speaking in v7 and states "Look! He [Jesus] is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.", there is an end of a sentence as can be seen by the "Amen" in the end of v7, v8 then says "I am the Alʹpha and the O·meʹga,” says the Lord God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty”. Nowhere in v8 does it state Jesus is speaking, nor does v7 identify who is speaking in v8 all we know is that its a new speaker. Verse 4&5 DOES shed light on who is speaking and it rules out Jesus as it has "the one who, who was, and who is coming" as being a separate person FROM Jesus. UNLESS you can explain this conundrum Jesus cannot be the one speaking in v8, it doesn't matter how many spurious verses you show it still won't get you out of this contradiction, deal with the contradiction. Remember, further trying to prove Jesus is the A&O DOES NOT solve the contradiction.
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NWL
Active member
So many Trinitarians jump on the plurality bandwagon without realizing they've contradicted the trinity doctrine. The plurality in the word Elohim is referring to majesty, not plurality of God when in reference to YHWH (oh so many scholar agree with this, renowned Trinitarians ones). It is especially stupid for Trinitarians to claim otherwise, as you've just done, since stating something like "In effect, Moses wrote, "In the beginning Gods, He created the Heavens and the Earth" is suggesting there is more than one God when that is not what the Trinity teaches. The Trinity teaches there is ONE God, IF "in the beginning Gods, he created the heavens and the earth" then there is more than one God which contradicts the trinity.
A Dictionary of the Bible by William Smith (Smith’s Bible Dictionary, p. 220, Hendrickson Publ.) declares:
“The fanciful idea that [elohim] referred to the trinity of persons in the Godhead hardly finds now a supporter among scholars. It is either what grammarians call the plural of majesty, or it denotes the fullness of divine strength, the sum of the powers displayed by God.”
Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982, Bethany House Publishers, written by trinitarian scholars, says of elohim:
“Applied to the one true God, it is the result in the Hebrew idiom of a plural magnitude or majesty. When applied to the heathen gods, angels, or judges ..., Elohim is plural in sense as well as form.” - p. 208.
Trinitarian scholar, Robert Young, (Young’s Analytical Concordance and Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) wrote in his Young’s Concise Critical Commentary, p. 1,
“Heb. elohim, a plural noun ... it seems to point out a superabundance of qualities in the Divine Being rather than a plurality of persons .... It is found almost invariably accompanied by a verb in the singular number.”
The NIV Study Bible says about elohim in its footnote for Gen. 1:1:
“This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.” – p. 6, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
And the New American Bible (St. Joseph ed.) tells us in its “Bible Dictionary” in the appendix:
“ELOHIM. Ordinary Hebrew word for God. It is the plural of majesty.” – Catholic Book Publishing Co., 1970.
Basically, you're incorrect.
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The idea from Genesis 1:1 is that a group of beings acted collectively in the act of creation, like a meeting of the minds. The idea of a singular "God" is what you get when you combine Elohism with monotheism. The monotheistic shema of Judaism (Deuteronomy 6:4) describes the singular nature of YHWH as singular Elohinuw, not plural Elohim.
On it's face Genesis 1:26-27 refutes Trinitarian doctrine since no person of the Trinity has a physical female form. The idea of a majestic plural doesn't work because both the angel of Exodus 3:2 and Moses in Exodus 19-20 are separately identified as part of Elohim and because references to YHWH alone don't use the plural Elohim.
At first glance this might appear to be contradicted by Deuteronomy 4:35:
Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that YHWH he is Elohim; there is none else beside him.
Deuteronomy 4:35
But when you check the context it includes Moses, since it was Moses who stretched out his hand in Egypt:
Or hath Elohim assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that YHWH Elohykm did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
Deuteronomy 4:34
God's Truth
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God's Truth
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Nope, sorry. That's wrong. Plural noun, followed by a singular verb. Genesis 1:1 is the most studied sentence in all of history.
In the beginning [Gods] [He created]...
Either Moses messed up the first sentence in the Bible (highly unlikely, as he was well educated), or he was intentionally using a plural noun with a singular verb to indicate a plurality in God, which in any other context would be incorrect grammar.
As Clete said, you have to come with the a priori belief that God is not triune to make the verse say anything other than that God is a plurality.
Nope. Wrong again.
First of all, "el" is the singular form. The word used in Deuteronomy 6:4 for "God" is a morph of the word elohim, not el. Elohenu is plural.
| Morphology: N-MPC Part of Speech: - N: Noun Grammatical Categories: - Gender M: Masculine - Number P: Plural - State C: Genitival Pronoun Morphology: 1CPGrammatical Categories: - Person 1: 1st Person - Gender C: Common - Number P: Plural |
Second, the word used there for "one" (ECHAD) is not one of singularity, but of unity, which, again, indicates a plurality in the one God, Elohim.
The same word is used in Genesis 2:24, "[man and woman] shall become one flesh." A plurality in the union of flesh.
No, it's not wrong. Plural noun -> a group of beings, singular verb -> a collective action, not a plurality of independent actions.
No, there's nothing special about the number three when you're talking about a plurality of beings.
LOL
No, Eloah is the singular form of Elohim in Hebrew.
But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou art grown thick, thou art covered [with fatness]; then he forsook God[אלוה] [which] made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his salvation.
Deuteronomy 32:15
In Aramaic it's Elah.
Thou, O king, [art] a king of kings: for the God [אלה] of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory.
Daniel 2:37
El has a different plural form:
<A Psalm of David.> Give unto YHWH, O ye mighty[אלים], give unto YHWH glory and strength.
Psalm 28:9
No, it's not a "morph" of Elohim. Elohenu is is singular like abenu is singular. In context there is only one being for echad-one to refer to, there's no union there like the context dictates in Genesis 2:24.
שמע ישראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד
Deuteronomy 6:4
ויאמר אבינו שבו שברו לנו מעט אכל
And our father said, Go again, [and] buy us a little food.
Genesis 44:45
NWL
Active member
According to John 4:23 true worshippers/Christians worship the Father, I worship the father and I also follow Christ to the best of my ability, therefore I say I am a true worshipper/Christian. Trinitarians, on the other hand, do not worship the Father, but rather, worship the Father, Son and HS as a trinity which is unscriptural and contrary to John 4:23 definition of what a true worshipper is.
(John 4:23) "[Jesus said] Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.."
I've never denied Jesus is a God/god, I believe he is one, I simply deny he is the one God of the bible which is a different matter altogether. What scriptures did I ignore that you have shown that proves Jesus is the "one God", like expressed at 1 Cor 8:4-6?
(1 Corinthians 8:4-6) "...Now concerning the eating of food offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him..."
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You're a liar or a fool or both.
"Ad Hominem" is not a term that is synonymous with "calling someone names", it's a form of argument. It's a fallacious form of argument but a form nonetheless. It happens when someone either states directly or implies that someone's position is false on the basis of their stupidity or whatever other pajorative they've used. I have made no such argumnent. The fact that I can make right judgments about your mental state and feel free to comment on that state has nothing to do with my argument against your position.
In short, if you're going to try and act like you're the smartest man in the room, you might want to maintain a proper understanding of the multisyllablic words you attempt to use in a sentence.
No, there were no questions to answer that didn't presuppose your premise. No one with any brain will ever answer such questions because they'd have to concede your side of the debate to even address them. Instead, I crushed your premise to powder by doing nothing at all but quoting the scripture and letting everyone read it for themselves. That, and pointing out that your own argument used evidence that proves your position wrong as if it proves the opposite. Which, by the way, is a neat tactic unless you're dealing with someone who knows how to both read and think clearly.
It's a stupid question!
This is the ridiculous question that you've been crying about no one answering? Really?
Do you understand what the Trinity doctrine teaches? Have I been wasting my time debating the Trinity with a slobber mouthed moron who doesn't even understand what the Trinity doctrine is?!
In fact, I will not answer your question until you answer that one. In fact, I will not post another word in response to anything you say unless it includes a direct answer to the question "What does the doctrine of the Trinity teach?"
He doesn't.
What does it prove? What do you think it proves?
Who is the root of David if not God?
Who do you say is the Root of David if not God and what could that phrase possibly mean in regards to a person that didn't exist until a thousand years after David died?!
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Of course it proves exactly that or else the phrase has no meaning whatsoever.
All you have to do is read it. You don't need one single syllable more than what I quoted to fully understand what is being said.
Revelation 5:5 But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.”
Revelation 22:16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
Jesus claims to be both that which came before and that which came after, BOTH the Root AND the Offspring of David.
It's as perfectly crystal clear as it can possibly be to anyone who can read.
Wait wait! Let me get this straight...
You're tell me that if I simple deny that something is true it doesn't do anything to make it true!
Get outa here! Really?!
I quoted the relevant passages. Who else in the bible was raised from the dead besides Jesus?
Lazarus? Are you suggesting that these letters to the seven churches were dictated by Lazarus? Maybe it was Tabitha! Peter raised Tabitha from the dead in Acts 9, maybe it was her!
In all, I think there are ten different instances where a person or group of people were raised from the dead in the bible, including Jesus Christ. If it wasn't Jesus dictating those letters to John then who was it?
That's another question I'll insist on getting a direct answer to before this goes any further. We'll see who answers questions around here and who doesn't.
Except that it wasn't God the Father that was dead and is now alive forevermore. Good greif you're stupid. Why am I wasting this much time with you? Did you even read my post or the passages that I quoted?
Quite the contrary. I'm the opposite of a King James Only dingbat conspiracy theorist.
Evidenced by the fact that I did not quote the King James Bible.
And whether you like it or not, Revelation 1:11 says what it says. I didn't write it and you can't prove that the phrase, which is used repeatedly throughout the chapter doesn't belong in verse 11. Someone with a one heck of a lot more knowledge, skill and expertise than either of us translated a bible into English that stood as the standard for the English language itself for centuries, used manuscripts that included “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and,".
Not only that, but it seems clear enough to me that it's just a repeat of what was already quoted in verse 8.
Finally, I don't even need verse 11! My argument doesn't rest solely on that one verse! I have the entire chapter 1 and verses throughout the book of Revelation to make this point not to mention the several passages in and indeed the entire theme of the Gospel of John!
Saying it doesn't make it so. I have quoted the passages that directly contradict your doctrine.
Again, this ridiculous argument smacks its face against what the Trinity doctrine teaches, which you seem not to even understand.
Revelation 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters saying:
“You are righteous, O Lord,
The One who is and who was and who is to be,
Because You have judged these things.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets,
And You have given them blood to drink.
For it is their just due.”
John 5:21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
The Apostle John just keep clubbing you over the head! (I bet you don't even see the point here.)
Indeed, that John 5 passage is another one where Jesus is claiming equality with the Father. The only ones who don't see it are the ones trying not to see it because of their pet doctrines.
Clete
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Utter, unadulterated, 100% pure flat out stupidity.
The simple fact of the matter is that Genesis 1:1 uses the plural form of the word for God "Elohim" which is then followed by a singular verb. It's not only done there but all over the place! Pretty much every single time the bible uses the word "Elohim" it is followed by what would otherwise be the grammatically incorrect singular verb! That's a fact, Jack! There isn't one single soul in the whole Earth that denies it, including you!
Further, just a few sentences later we read, 'Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;..." (vease 26) and a couple chapters later Moses records, "Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil." (Gen. 3:22), and later still we read, "And the Lord said, “Indeed the people are one and they all have one language, and this is what they begin to do; now nothing that they propose to do will be withheld from them. Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.”(Gen. 11:6-7).
The idea that there is plurality within the One God is as ancient and fundamental as is the Judeo Christian belief system itself.
I do not see how this is relevant except to concede my point. In fact, I'm not even sure what your point is, exactly.
The fact is that not only Genisis 1:1 but everywhere else "Elohim" is used throughout the entire bible, it is followed by the use of a singular form of verb. I don't know of a single exception.
That would be a really weird accident, don't you think?