Jesus is God

[Rosenritter]

Mat_28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

That power is the power of the logos he was anointed with.

Which does nothing to establish your point Keypurr. Jesus is allowed to say that. Notice it does not say that he lacked all power in heaven and earth prior to this, and such you would expect him to speak to people who hadn't yet seen the whole picture. Notice that most people (even his disciples) didn't quite grasp even that he was the MESSIAH until after he rose from the dead.

 

[keypurr]

How about starting with the basic of basic, Genesis 1 and John 1? Parallel accounts, the Word = God = Creator? None of these "I will hunt for a favorite translation excuse" rabbit trails? Basics!

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Who or what is that spirit of the God?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Both verses imply that the WORD (logos), The express image spirit son was there.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God,[/B] hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

I see the logos as a created God that YHWH used to create all.

God used his first creation to lay the foundation of the Universe.

 

[keypurr]

Which does nothing to establish your point Keypurr. Jesus is allowed to say that. Notice it does not say that he lacked all power in heaven and earth prior to this, and such you would expect him to speak to people who hadn't yet seen the whole picture. Notice that most people (even his disciples) didn't quite grasp even that he was the MESSIAH until after he rose from the dead.

That because you do not see the point.

Christ is not God or he would have had the POWER.

Why would he be given the power if he already had the power?

Disagree, Peter and John knew he was the Christ.

Jesus received that power when he was anointed with the logos.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That because you do not see the point.

Christ is not God or he would have had the POWER.

Why would he be given the power if he already had the power?

Because He emptied Himself of that power to come to Earth. Or do you think that it would be a good idea for Creator of the Universe, to hold the power of God as a baby? No, not only would that not make sense, but it would also go against what God had intended, to show that He was coming as a message of peace for His first coming, and then to contrast that later on He would return on a white horse, as a conquerer.

Disagree, Peter and John knew he was the Christ.

Jesus received that power when he was anointed with the logos.

 

[6days]

Christ is not God or he would have had the POWER.

Did Christ have "the power" when He created our universe?
Colossians 1:16-17 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Compare to...
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone."

 

[Rosenritter]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Who or what is that spirit of the God?

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Both verses imply that the WORD (logos), The express image spirit son was there.

Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God,[/B] hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

I see the logos as a created God that YHWH used to create all.

God used his first creation to lay the foundation of the Universe.

When you say "God used his first creation" ... to create at that point you are 1) making things up and 2) denying what is expressly said in scripture. He who created all things created all things that were made. It is a logical and mathematical requirement that that one cannot be a creation and the creator of all creations at the same time.

While you deny this simply mathematical fact all of your vain repetitions of this "created spirit son" nonsense are in vain.

 

[Rosenritter]

Double post deleted.

 

[Rosenritter]

That because you do not see the point.

Christ is not God or he would have had the POWER.

Why would he be given the power if he already had the power?

Disagree, Peter and John knew he was the Christ.

Jesus received that power when he was anointed with the logos.

Jesus as God had the power of God, he could command legions of angels, he performed miracles on his whim and his pleasure without necessity of prayer (remember when he calmed the storm?) He possessed eternal life within himself. When Jesus says "I have been given all power and authority" he is speaking for the benefit of his disciples. It simply means that he is now assuming the role of all power and authority - a role which he was not claiming on the cross.

Let's use an analogy. If I am the System Administrator of a network and I also have a user account I have made for myself, I can honestly say "I am the system administrator" while logged into that account. In reality I am, though perhaps in a technical way I am not. When I grant my second account permissions for Administrator tasks, I am "giving" myself power and authority. One person. The same person. Not a "created spirit son."

 

[Rosenritter]

Did Christ have "the power" when He created our universe?
Colossians 1:16-17 "For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities— all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."
Compare to...
Isaiah 44:24 "Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, and the one who formed you from the womb, "I, the Lord, am the maker of all things, stretching out the heavens by Myself, and spreading out the earth all alone."

I think Keypurr doesn't believe Isaiah, that the LORD created the heavens and the earth by Himself. He thinks that it means that the LORD created a spirit son to create the heavens and the earth by that guy's own self.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Jesus as God had the power of God, he could command legions of angels, he performed miracles on his whim and his pleasure without necessity of prayer (remember when he calmed the storm?) He possessed eternal life within himself. When Jesus says "I have been given all power and authority" he is speaking for the benefit of his disciples. It simply means that he is now assuming the role of all power and authority - a role which he was not claiming on the cross.

Let's use an analogy. If I am the System Administrator of a network and I also have a user account I have made for myself, I can honestly say "I am the system administrator" while logged into that account. In reality I am, though perhaps in a technical way I am not. When I grant my second account permissions for Administrator tasks, I am "giving" myself power and authority. One person. The same person. Not a "created spirit son."

Anytime Jesus spoke he knew his Father heard him. Remember Lazarus?

Not only that you have no clue what Jesus prayed every time he went off to pray alone.

Your analogy therefore sorely lacks in providing proof of "what it means" to have the Son is to have the Father.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

I think Keypurr doesn't believe Isaiah, that the LORD created the heavens and the earth by Himself. He thinks that it means that the LORD created a spirit son to create the heavens and the earth by that guy's own self.

Neither one of you were there when God sent forth His Son.

Nor when His Son became aware.

 

[Rosenritter]

Anytime Jesus spoke he knew his Father heard him. Remember Lazarus?

Not only that you have no clue what Jesus prayed every time he went off to pray alone.

Your analogy therefore sorely lacks in providing proof of "what it means" to have the Son is to have the Father.

We have all the proof we need when Jesus identifies himself as the first and the last in Revelation, invoking Isaiah's "... besides which there is no other God." We have all the proof when John says "the Word was God." There's not much point in going through this in cycles over and over just to be met with the same scripture denying responses.

 

[Bright Raven]

We have all the proof we need when Jesus identifies himself as the first and the last in Revelation, invoking Isaiah's "... besides which there is no other God." We have all the proof when John says "the Word was God." There's not much point in going through this in cycles over and over just to be met with the same scripture denying responses.

:thumb:

 

[Bright Raven]

John 1:1 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

The Deity of Jesus Christ
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1 John 1:1-2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Introduction, The Incarnate Word
1 What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life— 2 and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us—

John 10:30 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

30 I and the Father are one.”

 

[freelight]

Only 'God' is 'God'.....as pure Love, Light, Truth, Spirit.....the Alone INFINITE....

Only 'God' is 'God'.....as pure Love, Light, Truth, Spirit.....the Alone INFINITE....

We have all the proof we need when Jesus identifies himself as the first and the last in Revelation, invoking Isaiah's "... besides which there is no other God." We have all the proof when John says "the Word was God." There's not much point in going through this in cycles over and over just to be met with the same scripture denying responses.

Wow,

Here we are after 3 years........going in circles - hey, but its fun! - same ole arguments since 3rd-4th century on (Arians of all forms are still contested, to preserve trinitarian dogma...so the cycle continues...and yet the real study of theology goes well beyond Arius or Anthanasius). My former posts here in this rather voluminous thread still hold (and elsewhere), besides any new innovations of thought. A student of truth is always ready to change, modify or even abandon any previous belief or opinion.

All Christology is a matter of interpretative translation and personal preference, among other proclivities with logic chosen by each religionist as it best suits his taste. Some prefer a different nuance, relational construct or doctrinal camp,....its an open frontier.

Infinity itself is the nucleus and extension of divine wisdom.

Just a few points to re-consider.

1) There is no necessity for Jesus to be 'God' (however you define 'God' or 'qualify' your 'terms'), besides being the 'Son' of 'God', which is all he claimed to be.

Everything added or futher interpolated upon or into his 'Christhood' as being 'God Almighty' is theological innovation, doctrinal assumption, and creative 'Christology'. Thats it. So much also depends on what kind of 'Christology' favors your own philosophical disposition, theological preferences and other personal affinities.

2) A traditional orthodox monotheistic Unitarian Theology is just as good as a Trintarian one, take your pick, and there are other nuances of Christology to enjoy - a good research into early Christianity (probably the intertestamental period B.C. and first 3 - 4 centuries) may offer you a better variety, authenticity and a more eclectic flavor of 'Christianity' which enhances and enriches the personality of Jesus the Christos, which is not so rigid and dogmatic as later theology about him came to be DEVELOPED in later centuries

Only 'God' is 'God', as pure love, light, truth, spirit. 'God' is this and so much more, as the INFINITE ONE, even infinity. No matter how you divide, compound or differentiate or personify 'God', the primal Deity is still ONE.

View attachment 25946

 

[Rosenritter]

Wow,

Here we are after 3 years........going in circles - hey, but its fun! - same ole arguments since 3rd-4th century on (Arians of all forms are still contested, to preserve trinitarian dogma...so the cycle continues...and yet the real study of theology goes well beyond Arius or Anthanasius). My former posts here in this rather voluminous thread still hold (and elsewhere), besides any new innovations of thought. A student of truth is always ready to change, modify or even abandon any previous belief or opinion.

All Christology is a matter of interpretative translation and personal preference, among other proclivities with logic chosen by each religionist as it best suits his taste. Some prefer a different nuance, relational construct or doctrinal camp,....its an open frontier.

Infinity itself is the nucleus and extension of divine wisdom.

Just a few points to re-consider.

1) There is no necessity for Jesus to be 'God' (however you define 'God' or 'qualify' your 'terms'), besides being the 'Son' of 'God', which is all he claimed to be.

Everything added or futher interpolated upon or into his 'Christhood' as being 'God Almighty' is theological innovation, doctrinal assumption, and creative 'Christology'. Thats it. So much also depends on what kind of 'Christology' favors your own philosophical disposition, theological preferences and other personal affinities.

If Jesus was not God, then he was a blasphemer and based on what else he has said, he's replacing the actual God with himself in the future.

 

[Rosenritter]

Wow,

Here we are after 3 years........going in circles - hey, but its fun! - same ole arguments since 3rd-4th century on (Arians of all forms are still contested, to preserve trinitarian dogma...so the cycle continues...and yet the real study of theology goes well beyond Arius or Anthanasius). My former posts here in this rather voluminous thread still hold (and elsewhere), besides any new innovations of thought. A student of truth is always ready to change, modify or even abandon any previous belief or opinion.

All Christology is a matter of interpretative translation and personal preference, among other proclivities with logic chosen by each religionist as it best suits his taste. Some prefer a different nuance, relational construct or doctrinal camp,....its an open frontier.

Infinity itself is the nucleus and extension of divine wisdom.

Just a few points to re-consider.

1) There is no necessity for Jesus to be 'God' (however you define 'God' or 'qualify' your 'terms'), besides being the 'Son' of 'God', which is all he claimed to be.

Everything added or futher interpolated upon or into his 'Christhood' as being 'God Almighty' is theological innovation, doctrinal assumption, and creative 'Christology'. Thats it. So much also depends on what kind of 'Christology' favors your own philosophical disposition, theological preferences and other personal affinities.

If Jesus was not God, then he's replacing God in the future. That, and it makes him somewhat of a blasphemer and/or imposter in the meantime until he completes his overthrow.

 

[Tambora]

Acts 20:28 KJV
(28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

 

[freelight]

Nice try,....'God' is the Life that indwells all beings anyways.......

Nice try,....'God' is the Life that indwells all beings anyways.......

Acts 20:28 KJV
(28) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Spirit has no physical 'blood'. Your trinitarian hypostaticizing is noted

'God' is One,...slice, dice or assume 'God' in any way, shape or form you like,.....the incorporeal essence, spirit or consciousness of 'God' can indwell, permeate or imbibe anything. This includes all personalities, no matter what rank, status or class you assign them.

 

[Tambora]

Spirit has no physical 'blood'. Your trinitarian hypostaticizing is noted

'God' is One,...slice, dice or assume 'God' in any way, shape or form you like,.....the incorporeal essence, spirit or consciousness of 'God' can indwell, permeate or imbibe anything. This includes all personalities, no matter what rank, status or class you assign them.

I accept scripture.
"with his own blood".