And, if it's all the same to you, can we just continue the conversation in that thread? It's really hard to keep track of what I've said in which thread.
Jesus is the Christ and he is God come in the flesh as a Son.
All these scriptures I am going to post are about the same time in the desert. They are scriptures from different books, but they are all about the same time in the desert.
Read this scripture, it says we should not test CHRIST:
1 Corinthians 10:9 We should not test Christ, as some of them did--and were killed by snakes.
Did you read that? Jesus is Christ, agree? That scripture shows us that Christ was in the desert with Moses.
Now read this scripture:
Exodus 17:2
Therefore the people quarreled with Moses and said, "Give us water that we may drink." And Moses said to them, "Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the LORD?"
Did you read that?
MOSES says why you test the LORD.
Test who?
Christ.
Test who?
The LORD.
Now read this scripture:
Psalm 106:14
But craved intensely in the wilderness, And tested God in the desert.
Did you read that?
Test who in the desert?
TESTED GOD.
Read this scripture:
Psalm 95:9
"When your fathers tested Me, They tried Me, though they had seen My work.
Tested who?
Tested Me.
Who is Me?
Me is God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
So then, we can see that Christ is the LORD God the Father.
Christ means God/Lord/Spirit.
That is who God is; He is God, Lord, Spirit.
That is who Jesus is; He is God, Lord, Spirit.
There is only one God and He is the Father.
Jesus is that one and same God the Father come in the flesh as a Man.
Jesus is the Christ, the Lord God and Father.
You going in circles and still confused...go back to the scripture that I gave that show us Jesus is God, the Christ, the Me, the LORD.
And, if it's all the same to you, can we just continue the conversation in that thread? It's really hard to keep track of what I've said in which thread.
Scripture indicates that those who are dead physically are not in a state of stasis, but are in fact, very aware of their surroundings and interact with it.
Quite the opposite. The scripture literally states that the dead are without knowledge that they are dead (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6) and that the dead cannot praise God (Psalm 88:10, Psalm 115:17). Job says that the dead cease from troubling, good and evil, rich and poor alike (Job 3). Death is described in terms such as darkness and silence.
That's hardly "quite aware of their surroundings."
If you want to interject, answer the question given please. As a reminder, when a sentence has an "if" statement before it, that means you don't get to object to that portion, but should answer based on assuming the if. It doesn't mean you accept the "if" statement, it means you accept it for purposes of conversational argument.
Tell me Glory, when a believer perishes, and is dead,and if that believer has no experience in death, what are they resurrected to? What does Paul say that the believer is resurrected to?
Let's start with 1 Corinthians chapter 15, whole chapter. He says that the dead are raised and changed. Nothing in there about being alive and aware of surroundings.
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:6-8&version=NKJV
Now tell me please, where does it say anything about being in an ALIVE state without need of resurrection? You're reading that into the passage and it's not there. We're already told what death is like, it's blackness, quiet, lack of knowledge or awareness. One moment dead and next moment alive at the resurrection is what one would expect if one believes what the scripture already told us. Which is exactly what Paul said anyway.
He says that:
home in the body = absent from the Lord
and
absent from the body = home with the Lord
Should there be a need to state such, given that this is already clearly defined by previous scripture, and Paul is not in the habit of denying the Old Testament or calling it uninspired?
Could you please provide the scriptures that supports that position?
Provide a passage that says that the dead don't wait? Waiting in this context is an action, it is a conscious experience of the passing of time. We are told that the dead know nothing, not even that they are dead. I think that counts.
We also have common sense and experience. Anyone who has ever blacked out (for any reason) knows what it is like to be aware at one moment of time and then be at the next moment having skipped time in between. We're talking about a black out just from low blood sugar or a cerebral shock, and there's no knowledge of passing of time in between that.
So you're suggesting that if you take someone who has blacked out from lack of oxygen to the brain, and then you atomize their brain, you just made them suddenly aware of things about them? That unconsciousness is only possible if you keep them alive? Just making sure you are being consistent here.
----
Spoiler
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” - Luke 16:19-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke16:19-31&version=NKJV
Spoiler
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. - Revelation 6:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation6:9-11&version=NKJV
These two scriptures, among others tell us that those who sleep (which is a metaphor for death) are conscious.
The passage from Luke is a parable that describes "Abraham's Bosom," which is the place that those who died righteous were kept until Christ's resurrection, after which they were transported to Heaven.
The passage from Revelation provides a glimpse of Heaven, showing us that those who were martyred were aware of what was going on, and could even speak! They cry out to God asking how long it will be until they are avenged. That's pretty clear evidence that those who sleep are not in stasis.
The first passage is a message in parable, and parables are well known for invoking imaginary or fantastic settings that would be recognized by an audience. Trees can speak and call down fire in parables. We already have many prior passages that inform us matter-of-fact that the dead know nothing at all and have no trouble or disturbance in death.
The second passage you cite is in the context of a dream filled with imagery, but even if we set that aside, it would contradict your interpretation of the prior parable. If Luke 16 is literal, then the saints would not ask "how long" before they are avenged, because they would know where their enemies were right this moment. Regardless, those saints are not in heaven but on the earth. Look at that a bit more carefully. And even this aside, after they've said their part for this part of the vision, what are they told to do? To go back and rest. Rest, it says. Not to glory with harps in clouds, but rest. These saints of this vision are no more literal people than the horsemen just cited.
Regardless, the doctrine of the resurrection (which we are told is central to the Christian faith) contradicts any assumption that the dead are not dead. Paul says that if there is no resurrection than we Christians are without hope. That doesn't sound very compatible with the assumptions you were proceeding on.
1 Corinthians 15:12-19 KJV
(12) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
(13) But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
(14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
(15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
(16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
Because it sounds to me that if I believed as you, we wouldn't be at all without hope if we had no resurrection, because we would be every bit as happy and in bliss with our Lord without the resurrection.
Philippians 2:5-6 KJV
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Are you going to argue that this is just Paul lying now, that it doesn't count because this isn't in red text? Well, we have this too.
John 5:17-18 KJV
(17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
It seems that the Jews knew what Jesus was talking about. It seems that Paul did also. You're the odd one out of this equation.
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him. 4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Yes he would if God gave him his fullness. Did not Jesus say that ALL power in heaven and earth was given o him? That makes him a created form of God. Yet he has God.
If I step out of my chair of referee and play among the students, I am no longer wielding all power and authority. When I step back into the chair and take the referee whistle, I have again taken up all power and authority. Jesus did not say that someone gave him something that was not already his. If you read Hebrews, you'd see how everything Jesus has was his by inheritance. Not by good will, not by grace, but because it was already his.
Just like the church, you could go on and on with your half truths and fables. There is NO VERSE where Jesus says he is God. It is just the opposite, he says only his Father is God. But you and the church in your wisdom say he is wrong, you say there are three Gods in one. That is not what Jesus or his Apostles teach.
John 20:28-29 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus also comes right out and says it in Revelation, and just to make sure you understand, he uses the names and titles reserved for the LORD God Almighty from the Old Testament.
Philippians 2:5-6 KJV
(5) Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
(6) Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Are you going to argue that this is just Paul lying now, that it doesn't count because this isn't in red text? Well, we have this too.
John 5:17-18 KJV
(17) But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
(18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
It seems that the Jews knew what Jesus was talking about. It seems that Paul did also. You're the odd one out of this equation.
You love the KJV but other differ. Anyway, yes in a way he was equal to God but only because God gave him power. He was given the fullness of his creator. But the servant is not equal to his master, Christ is a creation, his Father is the Almighty. Jesus said his Father is greater than ALL.
If I step out of my chair of referee and play among the students, I am no longer wielding all power and authority. When I step back into the chair and take the referee whistle, I have again taken up all power and authority. Jesus did not say that someone gave him something that was not already his. If you read Hebrews, you'd see how everything Jesus has was his by inheritance. Not by good will, not by grace, but because it was already his.
John 20:28-29 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
(29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Jesus also comes right out and says it in Revelation, and just to make sure you understand, he uses the names and titles reserved for the LORD God Almighty from the Old Testament.
Here are some notes from the past, they are not mine but they make me think.
John 20 Thomas said
Thomas' worship of the risen Jesus as "My Lord and my God"
This is why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when he fell at his feet and worshiped the risen Lord. Not because Jesus knew himself to be Jehovah God and this fact had finally dawned on Thomas. Rather, it was homage it proffered to Jesus as God's ordained Messiah. Jesus can be worshiped as the Lord Messiah. In fact, this is clearly what the writer John means by reporting this incident, for the very next two verses say that these things "have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31).
To say that Thomas was worshiping Jesus as Almighty God is to directly contradict John's own stated purpose for writing his whole Gospel. When Thomas fell at Jesus' feet and worshiped him, Thomas was at last recognizing that the resurrected Jesus was the long promised Lord Messiah. Thomas' language it was steeped in Old Testament concepts.
Remember when David stepped out of the cave and call to King Saul, "My Lord and my King" (1 Sam. 24:9)? In the same way King Messiah is to be worshiped and adored by his bride: "Then the King will desire your beauty; because he is your Lord, bow down to him" (Ps.45:11). Thomas' language is in the same Hebrew tradition. He means the same thing. Thomas is addressing the rightful king of Israel, the now risen and victorious Lord. We just have to think like first century Jews steeped in their Old Testament prophets! "A Savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord" (Luke 2:11). The wise men believe the infant Jesus was the King of Israel they brought their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to worship him: "Where is the one who has been born King of the Jews? We saw his star in the East and have come to worship him They bowed down and worshiped him" (Matt. 2:2, 11). "God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36). Worship is offered to Jesus because he is the Messiah, the Son of God, the King of Israel. We have already seen that in Jewish understanding, the word "God" can refer to one who represents the Almighty God (Exodus 7:1, etc.). The King of Israel could be called "god" because he represented God to the people. Thomas knew the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah was to be called "god" for he was to represent Jehovah perfectly. Thomas' worship was that of a Jew deeply grounded in the Old Testament faith that God is one Jehovah and that the Messiah is also called "god" in a relative and royal rather than an absolute sense. Psalm 45:7 says of the Messiah, "You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy above your fellows."
If I step out of my chair of referee and play among the students, I am no longer wielding all power and authority. When I step back into the chair and take the referee whistle, I have again taken up all power and authority. Jesus did not say that someone gave him something that was not already his. If you read Hebrews, you'd see how everything Jesus has was his by inheritance. Not by good will, not by grace, but because it was already his.
You love the KJV but other differ. Anyway, yes in a way he was equal to God but only because God gave him power. He was given the fullness of his creator. But the servant is not equal to his master, Christ is a creation, his Father is the Almighty. Jesus said his Father is greater than ALL.
You need to read context Keypurr. Jesus also said that he has the same right and control over life and death as the Father, that he himself has the reigns of judgment. John and Paul tells us that Jesus created all things. Moses told us God created all things. Combine Moses, John, and Paul, and Jesus is the God who created all things. The rest of your excuses (and that's what they seem like) are easily understood as figures of speech under this most elementary context.
Christ is not a creation, you keep repeating that (which is a lie) which you have made up. Not fair to say you made that up exactly, various groups beat you too that long ago. Christ created all things that were created, it says. Therefore he is not a creation. That you are unable to process such basic logic doesn't vouch well for the rest of your assertions.
How about starting with the basic of basic, Genesis 1 and John 1? Parallel accounts, the Word = God = Creator? None of these "I will hunt for a favorite translation excuse" rabbit trails? Basics!
