Jesus is God

Jesus is God


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glorydaz

Well-known member
... but if you would like to offer constructive conversation, there is that lingering question of how Jesus thought "He is the God of the Living" was supposed to prove the resurrection of the dead, if the dead were actually alive like you claim...

You're ignoring the entire conversation, and the motives behind the questions. They were questioning God's power to raise people from the dead. He responds with God is not the God of dead men, but living men.

Matt. 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.​



The dead were actually alive as Jesus claimed. God told Moses He was the God of the living...naming Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (after they were all dead.) Was He no longer their God because they were "dead"? "For all live unto Him." God knew what you don't accept. That when our body dies, we DON'T. To God, Abraham was very much alive, and only awaited his body at the resurrection.

Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.​

That isn't what you're trying to prove, so you miss the point entirely. That happens whenever someone tries to prove their point while ignoring the context. You don't' doubt the resurrection, you just doubt the awareness of those who are dead.

***********

Here's something else for you to think about. Remember, context is everything.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
 

Bright Raven

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The WORD or logos is the express image son of the most high. It is a spirit like his creator. He came to live in the body God prepared for him. That body is Jesus.

John 1:1 is NOT about Jesus, its about the WORD (logos)

Oh you are so wrong. Your denial of Jesus as God is the most horrible mistake you will ever make.
 

Bright Raven

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Jesus is the Christ of God.

He has been made Lord by the one and only true God, his Father.




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Keypurr, You really need to reevaluate who the Word of God is. I would not take one translations (AENT) for gospel truth. The Trinity has been accepted doctrine since the early church fathers. I implore you to reconsider.


Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Quoted from Carm.org
 

steko

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Keypurr, You really need to reevaluate who the Word of God is. I would not take one translations (AENT) for gospel truth. The Trinity has been accepted doctrine since the early church fathers. I implore you to reconsider.


Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Quoted from Carm.org

Yes, and all these quotes from long before the Roman Catholic church was established.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Keypurr, You really need to reevaluate who the Word of God is. I would not take one translations (AENT) for gospel truth. The Trinity has been accepted doctrine since the early church fathers.

The AENT is only one of my thirty plus translations.

The Apostles never speak of a Trinity BR.

Neither did Jesus Christ.

John 17:3 is a very big verse for you to ignore my friend.
Why do you do it?

Don't you think that I have read your posted books before.
We could argue them as well as we do scripture.
I have no chains to bind me from truth.




Sent from my iPad using TOL
 

Bright Raven

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The AENT is only one of my thirty plus translations.

The Apostles never speak of a Trinity BR.

Neither did Jesus Christ.

John 17:3 is a very big verse for you to ignore my friend.
Why do you do it?

Don't you think that I have read your posted books before.
We could argue them as well as we do scripture.
I have no chains to bind me from truth.




Sent from my iPad using TOL

John 17:3 gives a simple explanation as to how eternal life is obtained. It is by knowing God and Jesus Christ. The only true god is in contrast to idols, which are not genuine gods at all. This verse does not mean that Jesus Christ is not the true God. The fact that His Name is mentioned together with God the Father's as being the joint source of eternal life means that they are equal. From the believers bible commentary. Though I agree with them, don't argue with me. Argue with the commentators.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
John 17:3 gives a simple explanation as to how eternal life is obtained. It is by knowing God and Jesus Christ. The only true god is in contrast to idols, which are not genuine gods at all. This verse does not mean that Jesus Christ is not the true God. The fact that His Name is mentioned together with God the Father's as being the joint source of eternal life means that they are equal. From the believers bible commentary. Though I agree with them, don't argue with me. Argue with the commentators.

Jesus Christ says quite clearly that his Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, why are you trying to whitewash it?

Your Lord, the Son of God told you the truth, yet you and others here refuse to absorb the words from the master. Christ was sent to us by his God, to make him God is to be like the Roman and Greek pagans. They had many Gods. It is not keypurr who shames his God and his Lord. It is not keypurr who breaks the commandment of only one God. It is the majority who do not have the courage so see the truth as it is written. Christ said his God is the only God and to love him first and foremost. This is what Jesus taught.

Let the dead bury the dead and follow the true leader, our Lord, to the throne of God.

For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,’…He (Jesus) said to them, ‘Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Cor. 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 1:1 – "To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 3:13 – "To be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus."
2 Thessalonians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 – "May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us."
Philippians 4:20 – To our God and Father, glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Collosians 1:2 – "Peace from God our Father."
Ephesians 4:6 – "One God and Father of all."
James1:1 – "James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."
2 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."
Titus 1:4 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior."
Philemon vv. 3 – "Peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Galatians 1:3 "Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

One God AND ONE Lord.
 

patrick jane

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Luke 4:18-21 – "He (Jesus) unrolled the scroll and found the passage where it was written: ‘The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me,’…He (Jesus) said to them, ‘Today this Scripture passage is fulfilled in your hearing."

God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ

1 Cor. 1:3 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Cor. 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Philippians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 1:1 – "To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Thessalonians 3:13 – "To be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus."
2 Thessalonians 1:2 – "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Thessalonians 2:16 – "May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who has loved us."
Philippians 4:20 – To our God and Father, glory for ever and ever. Amen."
Collosians 1:2 – "Peace from God our Father."
Ephesians 4:6 – "One God and Father of all."
James1:1 – "James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ."
1 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."
2 Timothy 1:2 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord."
Titus 1:4 – "Peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our savior."
Philemon vv. 3 – "Peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."
Galatians 1:3 "Peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ."

One God AND ONE Lord.
God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ are EQUAL.

I don't think God will hold it against you for not understanding the Trinity, it's complicated. I certainly don't have it all figured out, I simply believe what is plainly written.
 

patrick jane

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Banned
Jesus is the Christ of God.

He has been made Lord by the one and only true God, his Father.




Sent from my iPad using TOL
[h=1]John 14:7-9New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]The Father Revealed[/h][FONT=&quot]7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?[/FONT]
 

Rosenritter

New member
Well, I see at home in the body and present with the Lord, but no soul sleep in the body while we wait.
2 Cor. 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Cor. 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.​

Your approach starts with a non-biblical premise (that the dead aren't really dead) and attempts to read that into the text. The passage works just as well (in fact, better) with what we have already been told in holy scripture (inspired scripture) that the dead are dead and even without knowledge that they are dead.

Tell me Glory, when a believer perishes, and is dead, and if that believer has no experience in death, what are they resurrected to? What does Paul say that the believer is resurrected to?

Your error is the "while we wait" that you insert into your argument above. The dead don't wait, Glory. The dead don't do or experience anything. That's what we are literally told in scripture, the same scripture that Jesus used and endorsed, and we haven't been given reason to believe that it was being deceptive or mistaken.

UH, Paul is talking to people who are still alive and walking around on this earth, telling them not to worry, because when Jesus comes He will bring their loved ones with Him. What can you possibly be reading into that text?

He was quite aware. "To depart and be with Christ...."
Philippians 1:23-24
For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Glory, have you not read Paul? What's the sequence of events he describes?

1) Alive,
2) Death,
3) Raised to be with the Lord

You keep summoning non-proofs.
 

Rosenritter

New member
You're ignoring the entire conversation, and the motives behind the questions. They were questioning God's power to raise people from the dead. He responds with God is not the God of dead men, but living men.
Matt. 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

The dead were actually alive as Jesus claimed. God told Moses He was the God of the living...naming Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (after they were all dead.) Was He no longer their God because they were "dead"? "For all live unto Him." God knew what you don't accept. That when our body dies, we DON'T. To God, Abraham was very much alive, and only awaited his body at the resurrection.
Luke 20:38
For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

That isn't what you're trying to prove, so you miss the point entirely. That happens whenever someone tries to prove their point while ignoring the context. You don't' doubt the resurrection, you just doubt the awareness of those who are dead.

***********

Here's something else for you to think about. Remember, context is everything.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

You're dancing around the question. How does Christ's response prove the necessity of the resurrection, if the dead are actually alive right now without a resurrection? That was his stated purpose of that phrase, leaving no room for any other snippet to apply. Read carefully please:

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(27) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

When you force your "the dead aren't dead" filter his answer would be inapplicable, because if Abraham is alive without a resurrection, this answer doesn't prove the resurrection in any way whatsoever.
 

Rosenritter

New member
Keypurr, You really need to reevaluate who the Word of God is. I would not take one translations (AENT) for gospel truth. The Trinity has been accepted doctrine since the early church fathers. I implore you to reconsider.

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).

Quoted from Carm.org

Bright Raven, I do not think Justin was Trinitarian. If you read his Dialogue with Trypho he acknowledges Jesus as God, as the LORD God Almighty of the Old Testament, and the Creator, but he theorized that there was a second God mostly unseen until the New Testament, which Jesus referred to as "the Father." He used the example of when God rained down fire on Sodom when the LORD was speaking to Abraham on the earth as evidence that there must be another to have made that happen...
 

Rosenritter

New member
Jesus Christ says quite clearly that his Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD, why are you trying to whitewash it?

... and he says that he is EQUAL with God, and that he and the Father are ONE, and that he has the same command and power over eternal life (and the innate possession) as God. What part of the words "Equal" and "One" do you not understand?
 

JudgeRightly

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Your approach starts with a non-biblical premise (that the dead aren't really dead) and attempts to read that into the text. The passage works just as well (in fact, better) with what we have already been told in holy scripture (inspired scripture) that the dead are dead and even without knowledge that they are dead.

Scripture indicates that those who are dead physically are not in a state of stasis, but are in fact, very aware of their surroundings and interact with it.

Tell me Glory, when a believer perishes, and is dead,

His soul is transported to heaven to be with God.

and if that believer has no experience in death, what are they resurrected to? What does Paul say that the believer is resurrected to?

Scripture reference?

Paul seems to make it very clear...

Spoiler
So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.For we walk by faith, not by sight.We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. - 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians5:6-8&version=NKJV


Or, if you prefer the Greek:
Spoiler
ef2e7bacea4e4b389e28f6b57bab25a6.jpg

18f102dbda8d504e763b8c697ac53578.jpg

5b1513376c299185f1334f1c1980e737.jpg


He says that:

home in the body = absent from the Lord
and
absent from the body = home with the Lord

He doesn't mention anything about being in stasis or soul-sleep.

Your error is the "while we wait" that you insert into your argument above. The dead don't wait, Glory. The dead don't do or experience anything. That's what we are literally told in scripture, the same scripture that Jesus used and endorsed, and we haven't been given reason to believe that it was being deceptive or mistaken.

Could you please provide the scriptures that supports that position?

Glory, have you not read Paul? What's the sequence of events he describes?

1) Alive,
2) Death,
3) Raised to be with the Lord

You keep summoning non-proofs.

Actually, it's more like (and I'm not just using what Paul says here):

1) Conceived, we enter eternity (Ecc 3:11)
2) Alive to God (Rom 6:5-11)
3) Reach the age of accountability, (ie, when we know the difference between right and wrong, aka the law) (Rom 7:7-12)
4) Die to God, and from here the path of humans splits (Rom 7:7-12)
5a) If a person repents, he becomes alive to God, alive in Christ (Eph 2:1-10)
6a) When he dies, he is present with God (2Cor 5:1-8)
7a) And after the living believers are caught up, we will all be given new bodies (1Cor 15:50-54)
5b) If a person rejects God, the dead will stand before God at the Great White Throne Judgement to be judged, and then be thrown into the Lake of Fire. He will not receive a new body. (Rev 20:11-15)

----

Spoiler
“There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day.But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate,desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.“Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’“Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house,for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” - Luke 16:19-31 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke16:19-31&version=NKJV


Spoiler
When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. - Revelation 6:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation6:9-11&version=NKJV


These two scriptures, among others tell us that those who sleep (which is a metaphor for death) are conscious.

The passage from Luke is a parable that describes "Abraham's Bosom," which is the place that those who died righteous were kept until Christ's resurrection, after which they were transported to Heaven.

The passage from Revelation provides a glimpse of Heaven, showing us that those who were martyred were aware of what was going on, and could even speak! They cry out to God asking how long it will be until they are avenged. That's pretty clear evidence that those who sleep are not in stasis.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
You're dancing around the question. How does Christ's response prove the necessity of the resurrection, if the dead are actually alive right now without a resurrection? That was his stated purpose of that phrase, leaving no room for any other snippet to apply. Read carefully please:

Matthew 22:31-32 KJV
(31) But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
(32) I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26-27 KJV
(26) And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
(27) He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

When you force your "the dead aren't dead" filter his answer would be inapplicable, because if Abraham is alive without a resurrection, this answer doesn't prove the resurrection in any way whatsoever.

That's like saying a caterpillar isn't alive while in his cocoon just because he has not yet acquired his butterfly wings.

It's the Lord's idea we are to have a spiritual body. He could leave us without one...as merely spirits. But, God's plan was that man have a body (flesh to begin with and then a spiritual body afterward). For some odd reason, you can't get that idea into your brain.

The resurrection is speaking of the BODY. The body....not the soul and the spirit of man. We know this because we pass from death unto life while still in this body of flesh. We have been created IN CHRIST while still in this body of flesh.

1 Cor. 15:37-38 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.​

Paul goes into great detail concerning this. If you can't understand what Jesus is telling you, look at what Paul tells us.

1 Cor. 15:39-41 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.​

The resurrection of the dead is speaking of the BODY...the natural BODY. Don't make the claim it's speaking of anything more than the BODY.

1 Cor. 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.​

Speaking of our spiritual body.

2 Corinthians 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:​

Paul tells us, "We shall not be found naked"....which is what you're insisting on.

2 Cor. 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.​

Here we see "mortality" is SWALLOWED UP by life. There is no period of lying naked in the grave as you insist.

2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.​
 

keypurr

Well-known member
God our Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ are EQUAL.

I don't think God will hold it against you for not understanding the Trinity, it's complicated. I certainly don't have it all figured out, I simply believe what is plainly written.

Are you saying that Jesus was not truthful when he said his Father is greater?

Are you saying the Jesus is equal to his creator?

Are you saying there is more than one true God? Jesus disagrees with you if you do.

So does all the Apostles.

Your Trinity is a fairytale Patrick, there is no Trinity.
Many years ago I would have agreed with you but now I know to much.
 

keypurr

Well-known member
... and he says that he is EQUAL with God, and that he and the Father are ONE, and that he has the same command and power over eternal life (and the innate possession) as God. What part of the words "Equal" and "One" do you not understand?

Where does Jesus say that he is equal with his Father?

I am one with the Father yet I am not God, or Lord, I am just a guy who loves the God of my Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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