Jesus is God

[Rosenritter]

Yep, according to how the Word means those things.
What, you have not? :chuckle:

In the sense that John writes, we (those who have come after) have not seen God, so how can we claim to love God (whom we have not seen) when we love not our brother, whom we have seen and is in front of us at this moment?

When Thomas witnessed the risen Jesus and finally understood, he confessed "My Lord and my God" and rather than telling Thomas that he was mistaken, or rebuking him as he rebuked Peter who would have withheld him from the cross, Jesus accepted his confession and praised those who would accept this afterwards in faith, without needing to feel and see directly.

Even the staunchest of Unitarian sites admit there are multiple passages in scripture which do call Jesus God. If this was not the truth, reality, and intent, then we should have a solid denial of Jesus as God from scripture to set things straight. There's no such denial, because it's true.

 

[glorydaz]

Yeah, anytime you see a (parenthesis) it should immediately raise a red flag, and when I see it in the second line of the opening paragraph of a book I know that something is likely wrong. It is essentially like a group of translators got together and decided how they were going to not translate the passage for what it actually says, and decided to put the portion they either did not like or did not understand in parenthesis and treat it almost like a footnote from the author within his own text. But to do such a thing right in the second line of the opening passage really takes the cake. Moreover they apparently did not and do not understand because in the opening passage the author uses both words which we already know cannot be speaking of "seeing" Elohim with the eyes of the flesh. Those two words right in the opening line are οραω, (horao), and θεαομαι, (theaomai), as has already been mentioned in this thread, (John 1:18a and 1John 4:12a respectively, which I will post again below).

1 John 1:1-3
1 ο ην απ αρχης ο ακηκοαμεν ο εωρακαμεν [G3708 οραω] τοις οφθαλμοις ημων ο εθεασαμεθα [G2300 θεαομαι] και αι χειρες ημων εψηλαφησαν περι του λογου της ζωης
2 και η ζωη εφανερωθη και εωρακαμεν και μαρτυρουμεν και απαγγελλομεν υμιν την ζωην την αιωνιον ητις ην προς τον πατερα και εφανερωθη ημιν
3 ο εωρακαμεν και ακηκοαμεν απαγγελλομεν και υμιν ινα και υμεις κοινωνιαν εχητε μεθ ημων και η κοινωνια δε η ημετερα μετα του πατρος και μετα του υιου αυτου ιη χρ

1 John 1:1-3
1 Who was from the beginning: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have beheld, and our hands have handled, concerns the Word of the Life.
2 And the Life was revealed, and we have seen, and we testify, and we announce unto you the Life Aionion which was with the Father, and was revealed unto us.
3 Whom we have seen and we have heard we announce also unto you so that you yourselves also may have fellowship with us: and our fellowship moreover is with the Father and with His Son, Meshiah Ι̅H.

The two highlighted words, "seen" and "beheld", are these two words:

John 1:18a ASV
18a No man hath seen [εωρακεν (G3708 οραω)] God at any time;

1 John 4:12a ASV
12a No man hath beheld [τεθεαται (G2300 θεαομαι)] God at any time:

Please note the most critical point of all: the context, for the incorrect doctrine will force a contradiction upon the scripture, and the one loving the Word will not force a contradiction just to salvage a doctrinal viewpoint.

It's a good thing the part I highlighted was not in the parenthesis, huh?



What I highlighted supports what John said in his Gospel, and that is that the Word was with and was God....God who is the light of the world. I can't see how else they could have made the point that they were able to behold the God of Glory because He came in the flesh so we could see him....with His glory veiled.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.​

It's the full glory of God that cannot be seen with the human eye...which is why He came in the flesh. And then Jesus tells us that HE is the light of the world.

 

[daqq]

It's a good thing the part I highlighted was not in the parenthesis, huh?



What I highlighted supports what John said in his Gospel, and that is that the Word was with and was God....God who is the light of the world. I can't see how else they could have made the point that they were able to behold the God of Glory because He came in the flesh so we could see him....with His glory veiled.

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.​

It's the full glory of God that cannot be seen with the human eye...which is why He came in the flesh. And then Jesus tells us that HE is the light of the world.

The moment Moses began to write, the Word became flesh, (lambskin).

 

[daqq]

In the sense that John writes, we (those who have come after) have not seen God, so how can we claim to love God (whom we have not seen) when we love not our brother, whom we have seen and is in front of us at this moment?

When Thomas witnessed the risen Jesus and finally understood, he confessed "My Lord and my God" and rather than telling Thomas that he was mistaken, or rebuking him as he rebuked Peter who would have withheld him from the cross, Jesus accepted his confession and praised those who would accept this afterwards in faith, without needing to feel and see directly.

Even the staunchest of Unitarian sites admit there are multiple passages in scripture which do call Jesus God. If this was not the truth, reality, and intent, then we should have a solid denial of Jesus as God from scripture to set things straight. There's no such denial, because it's true.

I have seen the only begotten Elohim Son who ever dwells in the bosom of the Father, and He is seated at the Right Hand of the Father, for the Father has magnified His Word over all His Name. That one was in the beginning with the Father. His name is not Jesus and, in fact, you can only find the name "Jesus" in modern translations of the scripture: in all the oldest and most reliable Greek codices, manuscripts, and texts, we read only what are now called "Nomina Sacra", and they are not what Christiandom has erroneously assumed, (at least not when it comes to the name of Meshiah).

 

[glorydaz]

The moment Moses began to write, the Word became flesh, (lambskin).

You're speaking of the written word of God.

The lambskin was not with God and was not God in the beginning.
The lambskin did not make all things.
There was no life in the lambskin, nor was it the light of men.

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.​

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

 

[Lazy afternoon]

It's truly amazing the lengths some will go to in order to avoid seeing what is plainly revealed.

John 8:12
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.​

1 John 1:2-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; )​

Jesus is now permeated with the light which is God.

Jesus is the candle of the light, easier to see before His resurrection than after.


Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:23 AndG2532 theG3588 cityG4172 hadG2192 noG3756 needG5532 of theG3588 sun,G2246 neitherG3761 of theG3588 moon,G4582 toG2443 shineG5316 inG1722 it:G846 forG1063 theG3588 gloryG1391 of GodG2316 did lightenG5461 it,G846 andG2532 theG3588 LambG721 is theG3588 lightG3088 thereof.G846

G3088
λύχνος
luchnos
lookh'-nos
From the base of G3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively): - candle, light.


We also are the light of the world, but that does not make us the actual light either.

Jesus is my Big Brother.

You do not yet truly know the man, for you do not confess Him.

LA

 

[daqq]

You're speaking of the written word of God.

The lambskin was not with God and was not God in the beginning.
The lambskin did not make all things.
There was no life in the lambskin, nor was it the light of men.

John 1:1-4
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
​

Revelation 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.​

So also are John 1:14 and 1John 1:1-3.

And the Word became flesh, (μεμβρανας-lambskins), and tabernacled among us: Who we have heard: Who we have seen with our eyes: Who we have looked upon, and which our hands have handled, the Word of Life in the lambskin Sefer, whose earlets were pierced coming into the world, being affixed to the Atzei Chayim.

Syria Gallery

Yes, Who tabernacles among us, and in the midst of the great congregation.

No man has seen, (οραω), or beheld, (θεαομαι), Elohim at any time, (Jn 1:18a, 1Jn 4:12a).
Blessed are those not having seen, (ειδω - to know), and being convinced, (John 20:29).
The one having οραω-seen the Son has οραω-seen the Father, (John 14:9).

John 12:47-48
47. And if anyone hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but that the world might be delivered.
48. He that rejects me, and receives not my words, has one that judges him: the LOGOS-WORD that I have spoken, THAT ONE shall judge him in the last day [Rev 19:11-16].
The Logos-Word

 

[Lazy afternoon]

x for the Father has magnified His Word over all His Name.x
.

A KJV mistranslation.

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

When Thomas witnessed the risen Jesus and finally understood, he confessed "My Lord and my God" and rather than telling Thomas that he was mistaken, or rebuking him as he rebuked Peter who would have withheld him from the cross, Jesus accepted his confession and praised those who would accept this afterwards in faith, without needing to feel and see directly.

.[/B]

Are you Roman Catholic?

Study the Bible better than that, but receive the Spirit of Truth first.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 20:28 AndG2532 ThomasG2381 answeredG611 andG2532 saidG2036 unto him,G846 MyG3450 LordG2962 andG2532 myG3450 God.G2316

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

 

[daqq]

A KJV mistranslation.

LA

No, it is not, that is what is in the Hebrew text of Psalm 138:2.
http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/138-2.htm

 

[glorydaz]

Jesus is now permeated with the light which is God.

Jesus is the candle of the light, easier to see before His resurrection than after.


Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Rev 21:23 AndG2532 theG3588 cityG4172 hadG2192 noG3756 needG5532 of theG3588 sun,G2246 neitherG3761 of theG3588 moon,G4582 toG2443 shineG5316 inG1722 it:G846 forG1063 theG3588 gloryG1391 of GodG2316 did lightenG5461 it,G846 andG2532 theG3588 LambG721 is theG3588 lightG3088 thereof.G846

G3088
λύχνος
luchnos
lookh'-nos
From the base of G3022; a portable lamp or other illuminator (literally or figuratively): - candle, light.


We also are the light of the world, but that does not make us the actual light either.

Jesus is my Big Brother.

You do not yet truly know the man, for you do not confess Him.

LA

:nono:

 

[Rosenritter]

I have seen the only begotten Elohim Son who ever dwells in the bosom of the Father, and He is seated at the Right Hand of the Father, for the Father has magnified His Word over all His Name. That one was in the beginning with the Father. His name is not Jesus and, in fact, you can only find the name "Jesus" in modern translations of the scripture: in all the oldest and most reliable Greek codices, manuscripts, and texts, we read only what are now called "Nomina Sacra", and they are not what Christiandom has erroneously assumed, (at least not when it comes to the name of Meshiah).

Right. No more questions.

 

[Rosenritter]

Are you Roman Catholic?

Study the Bible better than that, but receive the Spirit of Truth first.

Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Joh 20:28 AndG2532 ThomasG2381 answeredG611 andG2532 saidG2036 unto him,G846 MyG3450 LordG2962 andG2532 myG3450 God.G2316

G2962
κύριος
kurios
koo'-ree-os
From κῦρος kuros (supremacy); supreme in authority, that is, (as noun) controller; by implication Mr. (as a respectful title): - God, Lord, master, Sir.

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Rev 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Lazy Afternoon, are you blind? The word "GOD" is there in English. You're trying to read Greek when you can't yet read English? In the Greek text that you were supposedly reading, that's THEOS.

John 20:28 GNT-TR
(28) και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

John 20:28 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


You spent all those words trying to evade the force of the word Lord, but you ignored the word God. So tell us please, did Jesus rebuke Thomas for this statement as being blasphemy, or did he praise the faith of those who would believe this in the future without having seen him in person?

 

[daqq]

Right. No more questions.

Why do you suppose I offered a link to someone else that answers what you quoted?
Have a nice life.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

Lazy Afternoon, are you blind? The word "GOD" is there in English. You're trying to read Greek when you can't yet read English? In the Greek text that you were supposedly reading, that's THEOS.

John 20:28 GNT-TR
(28) και απεκριθη ο θωμας και ειπεν αυτω ο κυριος μου και ο θεος μου

John 20:28 KJV
(28) And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


You spent all those words trying to evade the force of the word Lord, but you ignored the word God. So tell us please, did Jesus rebuke Thomas for this statement as being blasphemy, or did he praise the faith of those who would believe this in the future without having seen him in person?

Jesus is not "the God", the creator.

Jesus is our master, and divine King.

Jesus is proclaimed God by His Father who is "the God", Ho Theos

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

John 20:17






John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. (KJV)


1. This verse is no problem at all in all the major versions we checked except for the NIV. The translators of the NIV caused a problem by using the word “return” instead of “ascend,” and making Christ say, “I have not yet returned to my Father.” The Greek word means, “to go up” and although it occurs 82 times in the Greek New Testament, even the NIV translators have translated it “returning” only in this one place, and as “returned” in the next verse. Christ did not “return” to his Father as if he had been there before, rather he “went up” to his Father. The Trinitarian “problem” in this verse is caused by a mistranslation, but, thankfully, other versions translate the verse more accurately.

2. This verse is one of the strongest proofs in the Bible that there is no Trinity. This event occurred after the resurrection, and Jesus said to Mary that he was ascending to “my God, and your God.” Jesus’ statement makes it clear that “God” is both his God and Mary’s God. If Jesus is God, he cannot have a God, for by definition if someone has a “God,” he cannot be “God.” If Jesus had a “God” as he said, then he cannot be part of that God. This is especially clear in this verse, because he and Mary have the same God. If he were God, then he would have been Mary’s God, too. He would not have said that he was going up to her God, because “her God,” i.e., Jesus himself, was standing right there. One of the most recognized principles of Bible interpretation, and one that is accepted by conservative scholars from all denominations, is that to be properly understood, the Bible must be read in a literal, “normal,” or “standard” way, i.e., the words of the Word should be understood the way we understand them in everyday speech, unless figurative language is demanded by the context. Everyone understands the phrase, “my God.” Christ used it both before and after his resurrection. He called to “my God” when he was on the Cross. He told Mary he was going to ascend to “my God.” He spoke of “my God” to both the churches of Sardis and Philadelphia (Rev. 3:2 and 12). It is hard to see how Jesus can be assumed to be co-equal and co-eternal with God when he calls Him, “my God.” The Bible simply means what it says in this verse: God is indeed both our God and Jesus’ God.

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses/john-20-17

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus is not "the God", the creator.

Jesus is our master, and divine King.

Jesus is proclaimed God by His Father who is "the God", Ho Theos

LA

How many divine Kings are there?

 

[Rosenritter]

Why do you suppose I offered a link to someone else that answers what you quoted?
Have a nice life.

You claimed authority from divine vision and/or presence in heaven. If you are right then I cannot compete with that. If you are wrong then you will still be persuaded in your own mind. Regardless, we have no way to substantiate the validity of your perceived experience for anyone else here so there's no point in continuing. Your vision contradicts my scripture. We're at a deadlock. Thus .... no more questions.

 

[Rosenritter]

Jesus is not "the God", the creator.

Jesus is our master, and divine King.

Jesus is proclaimed God by His Father who is "the God", Ho Theos

LA

Jesus acknowledged Thomas. John and Paul said that Jesus was the Creator. As for your protests, I'd say you are mistaken.

 

[daqq]

You claimed authority from divine vision and/or presence in heaven. If you are right then I cannot compete with that. If you are wrong then you will still be persuaded in your own mind. Regardless, we have no way to substantiate the validity of your perceived experience for anyone else here so there's no point in continuing. Your vision contradicts my scripture. We're at a deadlock. Thus .... no more questions.

You are making all kinds of wild untrue statements about me because you cannot hear what I say: even though I have shown you by the Word which you apparently cannot see. Lol, you cannot even seem to figure out what "see" means when and where. If you had followed the context in what I have said you would have known that I said nothing about visions. I even told you that I linked to what I spoke of and yet you still apparently have no clue what that means or simply do not feel the need to go investigate the link. Do you think it is wise for you to make false accusations, insinuations, and assertions about what someone else has said when they have given you the information to understand what they said and you ignore it? Yes, you can take that one post of mine and rip it out of the context of everything else I said, and highlight the portion which you think makes me look foolish, but all that proves is that no doubt you do the same thing with the scripture; and no wonder you cannot see what I see in the scripture. I said nothing about visions: dream on dreamer. :chuckle: