Jesus is God

Jesus is God

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L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
John 1:10-11 KJV
(10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
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Jesus was not in the world before His birth and Jesus is not the light which lit every man who came into the world before Jesus was even born.

You are into spiritualism. God is not your teacher.

LA
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
Jesus was not in the world before His birth and Jesus is not the light which lit every man who came into the world before Jesus was even born.

You are into spiritualism. God is not your teacher.

LA
Click to expand...

Do you know what that word means? Of all people to accuse of spiritualism on this board, I'd probably be voted among the least likely.

spir·it·u·al·ism
spiriCH(o͞o)əˌlizəm/
noun

  • 1. a system of belief or religious practice based on supposed communication with the spirits of the dead, especially through mediums.
  • 2. PHILOSOPHY the doctrine that the spirit exists as distinct from matter, or that spirit is the only reality.
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You do realize that you're not arguing with me right now, you're arguing with the gospel of John. I didn't use a word of my own interpretation. That was a straight quotation of John chapter 1 that you objected to so strongly.
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Re: "You forgot the other passages that said he was God and Creator of the Old Creation as well."

Lazy afternoon said:
It does not.

Explain Rev.chs 4 and 5.

LA
Click to expand...

Would you like to be a little more specific?

Spoiler

Revelation 4:1-11 KJV
(1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
(3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
(4) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
(5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
(6) And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
(7) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
(8) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
(9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:1-14 KJV
(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
(7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(12) Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
(13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
Re: "You forgot the other passages that said he was God and Creator of the Old Creation as well."



Would you like to be a little more specific?

Spoiler

Revelation 4:1-11 KJV
(1) After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
(2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
(3) And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
(4) And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
(5) And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
(6) And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
(7) And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.
(8) And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
(9) And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Revelation 5:1-14 KJV
(1) And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
(2) And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
(3) And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
(4) And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
(5) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
(6) And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
(7) And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
(8) And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
(9) And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
(10) And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(11) And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
(12) Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
(13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
(14) And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.
Click to expand...

(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


(13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
Do you know what that word means? Of all people to accuse of spiritualism on this board, I'd probably be voted among the least likely.



You do realize that you're not arguing with me right now, you're arguing with the gospel of John. I didn't use a word of my own interpretation. That was a straight quotation of John chapter 1 that you objected to so strongly.
Click to expand...


John ch 1 speaks of God being in the world (and rejected) before Jesus was born.

LA
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
(10) The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
(11) Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

(13) And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Click to expand...

I will guess that you are asking about identifying the nouns and pronouns. Everything marked in blue above is Jesus.

1) Jesus lives for ever and ever
2) Jesus is Lord
3) Jesus created all things
4) Jesus is seated at the throne of God
5) Jesus is the Lamb
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Rosenritter said:
I will guess that you are asking about identifying the nouns and pronouns. Everything marked in blue above is Jesus.

1) Jesus lives for ever and ever
2) Jesus is Lord
3) Jesus created all things
4) Jesus is seated at the throne of God
5) Jesus is the Lamb
Click to expand...

Jesus is not the creator sitting on the throne--

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

LA
 
L

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
Lazy afternoon said:
John ch 1 speaks of God being in the world (and rejected) before Jesus was born.

LA
Click to expand...

Rosenritter said:
No it doesn't. Why would you think that?
Click to expand...


Because Jesus is the word made flesh.

Jesus was not the Word itself.

(Yes, the Word is an it)

The Spirit of the Father was in the world, which was rejected in times past.

It was the Father who breathed life into man and lit every man before Jesus was born.

The fact that such authority of the Father was given to Jesus just means Jesus had to be become what He is before such was given Him.

I do not know about you but Jesus is my Brother, not my Father.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.


LA
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
Jesus is not the creator sitting on the throne--

Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


Dan 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

LA
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Tell me, how many lambs have you seen with seven horns and seven eyes? Acknowledge that there is some metaphor in the imagery, and now look again to find out who has that throne.

Revelation 7:15-17 KJV
(15) Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
(16) They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
(17) For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

That throne of God belongs to the Lamb. Further in that single throne is called "the throne of God and of the Lamb" and it's still a singular throne (Revelation 22:1, 3). One throne, one Lamb, One God. Synonymous terms used within the imagery for differing emphasis.

If you have any doubt about what it means, ask the one who gave the vision. Ask Jesus himself. He will tell you. He says he is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Assuming you recognize the scripture, the rest of the from Isaiah goes like "... and beside me there is no God."

Revelation 1:17-18 KJV
(17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
(18) I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Isaiah 44:6 KJV
(6) Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Revelation 22:13-16 KJV
(13) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
(16) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

That identifying phrase is used three separate times in Isaiah, every single one of them as to a unique and unshared name and title of God Almighty. It's used four times in Revelation. When Jesus invokes scripture, He usually understands its significance and implication. Just saying, the direct words of Jesus outweighs an interpretation based on elements of imagery.
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
I will guess that you are asking about identifying the nouns and pronouns. Everything marked in blue above is Jesus.

1) Jesus lives for ever and ever
2) Jesus is Lord
3) Jesus created all things
4) Jesus is seated at the throne of God
5) Jesus is the Lamb
Click to expand...

Jesus is the Lamb not the creator.

The Father is the creator and he created through his first creation the express IMAGE spirit Son.

Jesus is the body created for his real son, see Heb 10:5.


Sent from my iPad using TOL
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
Adam.
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Are you sure? You don't see men created before that? Because if I were reading Genesis the way I think you were reading John, God creates man in the sixth day, rests the seventh, and then afterwards creates a man called Adam.

Genesis 1:27 KJV
(27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:1-2 KJV
(1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

Genesis 2:7 KJV
(7) And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

So if you understand that there was only one creation of man, and that first man was Adam, because you understand how an author can weave in and out without being bound by strict chronological order, why would you require a different standard for John?
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
keypurr said:
Jesus is the Lamb not the creator.

The Father is the creator and he created through his first creation the express IMAGE spirit Son.

Jesus is the body created for his real son, see Heb 10:5.

Sent from my iPad using TOL
Click to expand...

You keep reading into scripture what isn't there, and then adding the rest that was missing to fill in your gaps. Jesus was not a man who was later possessed by some "spirit son." If you'd put scripture on a higher level than your imagining you'd get some clues for this:

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Your theory says that the child was a normal human who was not the Messiah or the Son of God. Yet the prophet tells us that it is the child himself whose name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father. The child, not some possessing spirit. No change of identity.
 
Bright Raven

Bright Raven

Well-known member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
keypurr said:
Jesus is the Lamb not the creator.

The Father is the creator and he created through his first creation the express IMAGE spirit Son.

Jesus is the body created for his real son, see Heb 10:5.


Sent from my iPad using TOL
Click to expand...

Ah Keypurr, A creation can not create!!!
 
Rosenritter

Rosenritter

New member
Lazy afternoon said:
Because Jesus is the word made flesh.

Jesus was not the Word itself.

(Yes, the Word is an it)

The Spirit of the Father was in the world, which was rejected in times past.

It was the Father who breathed life into man and lit every man before Jesus was born.

The fact that such authority of the Father was given to Jesus just means Jesus had to be become what He is before such was given Him.

I do not know about you but Jesus is my Brother, not my Father.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

LA
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Specifically pointing to the boldfaced above, "Jesus was not the Word itself" That's not correct. Jesus was the Son of Man. The Son of Man is the Word of God. See below:

Matthew 24:27-31 KJV
(27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
(28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 19:11-13 KJV
(11) And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
(13) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Jesus is the Son of Man. Jesus is returning with his angels. When he comes in Revelation, he comes with his angels, and his name is called the Word of God. I think that means that Jesus is the Word of God. Do you have a direct scripture that would otherwise contradict this?
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Rosenritter said:
You keep reading into scripture what isn't there, and then adding the rest that was missing to fill in your gaps. Jesus was not a man who was later possessed by some "spirit son." If you'd put scripture on a higher level than your imagining you'd get some clues for this:

Isaiah 9:6 KJV
(6) For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Your theory says that the child was a normal human who was not the Messiah or the Son of God. Yet the prophet tells us that it is the child himself whose name shall be called the mighty God, the everlasting Father. The child, not some possessing spirit. No change of identity.
Click to expand...

Consider that Jesus grew in wisdom, the creator of the Universe would not need to grow in wisdom. Think friend. It was after the dove landed on Jesus at his anointing the God declared that this was his Son.

The verse from Isaiah has been hashed over a thousand times on TOL. I did not build my faith on one or two verses.


Sent from my iPad using TOL
 
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